LG 5k Ultrafine + Hackintosh/windows SFF
I'm looking to build an itx/SFF hackintosh/windows pc to use with the LG 5k Ultrafine (first gen). I realise I need a Tb3 Alpine ridge AIC to get the full 40 gps to power the monitor. I'm struggling to find mini itx boards with the correct TB3_header. The case I was planning to use is the Streacom DA2 - Does anyone know of any itx boards with the tb3_header port and if it would fit in a SFF case like the streacom DA2
This says it has full 40gps TB3 on the board. I can't find any other itx boards that have this. In theory, this should work with the LG 5k right?
Only at 4K.
All Thunderbolt 3 controllers support 40 Gbps. Some only have two PCIe lanes (reduces PCIe bandwidth from 22 Gbps to 16 Gbps) but that doesn't reduce the bandwidth that can be used by DisplayPort for a display.
To use LG UltraFine 5K at 5K60, the Thunderbolt controller needs two DisplayPort inputs. Most PCs and laptops don't have two DisplayPort inputs. All Macs do. Many Macs have two Thunderbolt 3 controllers with two DisplayPort inputs each - to support two LG UltraFine 5K displays.
The X570 Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB3 only has one DisplayPort input. You should complain to them that you won't buy their piece of crap motherboard because it only has one DisplayPort input and therefore cannot support LG UltraFine 5K or Apple Pro Display XDR 6K displays.
Why does it say only 3 Thunderbolt devices can be detected? A Thunderbolt chain can support 6. Is this a limit placed on AMD by Intel?
Why doesn't it support eGPUs? What would stop a PC from supporting an eGPU (besides Windows)? Maybe their firmware is broken.
Why would DisplayPort 1.4 Input be limited to 4K60? DisplayPort 1.4 should allow 5K60 or 8K30 at 8 bpc. Are they using Alpine Ridge instead of Titan Ridge? This limit means that a 5K display that doesn't need two DisplayPort inputs would also not be supported.
I tested my 5k with my dual boot hack and it worked in windows, I’m guessing at 4K and maybe lower refresh rate? Never actually checked. I had an asrock fatality mobo, 270 something I think.
Thanks so much for the in-depth response! I'm really scratching my head over this. You said it would work at 4k. Would that be 4k 60hz? 4k/60 would be fine for me. I was looking at this board specifically because it said it supported full 40gps but I understand that it is DisplayPort 1.4 over tb3 which is needed (yet it still wouldn't work as you mentioned).
I originally wanted to build an intel based machine (easier time hackintoshing).
Am I correct in saying the Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac would power the LG 5k @ 4k/ 60hz too? It says it supports 4k/60hz via display port 1.2 in the specs. I just want to be sure before purchasing. @ Eightarmedpet I think this would have been the Mobo you used too. 4k/60 would be fine 4k/30hz would be a dealbreaker though.
Thanks again for all your help!
You said it would work at 4k. Would that be 4k 60hz?
Yes, one DisplayPort signal over Thunderbolt 3 for the LG UltraFine 5K allows only 4K60.
I understand that it is DisplayPort 1.4 over tb3 which is needed
For LG UltraFine 5K, it is two DisplayPort 1.2 over Thunderbolt 3 which is required for 5K60. Otherwise you are limited to 4K60.
Am I correct in saying the Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac would power the LG 5k @ 4k/ 60hz too? It says it supports 4k/60hz via display port 1.2 in the specs.
Only 4K60. That motherboard has no external DisplayPort inputs. Therefore, the Thunderbolt controller is getting DisplayPort inputs from the Intel CPU's iGPU (integrated graphics) so it would be limited to Intel graphics.
The iGPU supports only three DisplayPort 1.2/HDMI 1.4 outputs. The Rear Panel I/O includes HDMI and DisplayPort 1.2. The HDMI port supports HDMI 2.0 which means the motherboard has a DisplayPort 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 chip. Anyway, there's only one output left from the iGPU to connect to the Thunderbolt controller. Therefore, only one 4K60Hz DisplayPort 1.2 display can be supported from the Thunderbolt port.
You should consider a display that does not require Thunderbolt.
A 5120x2880 DisplayPort 1.4 display is limited to 8bpc (a dual DisplayPort 1.2 display like the LG UltraFine 5K or Dell UP2715K allows 10 bpc).
iiyama 27 inch Prolite XB2779QQS-S1
A 5120x2160 DisplayPort 1.4 display can do 10bpc. It can also do 8bpc with DisplayPort 1.2 probably.
LG 34 inch 34WK95U.
Yep, the Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac is what I had! Regret selling it now.
Linus did a video where he used a mining card with no display out put to game on using the same technologies ogpu's rely on (Optimus and XConnect) and IIRC was surprised by the lack of performance lost. I never got round to testing mine properly but wonder if it would have worked much like gpu's do.
I rarely manage to get 5K in Windows with my set up anyway, for some reason Intel drivers cap it at 4K. I've had 5K available a couple of times but have absolutely no idea what changes/changed to prevent/enable that.
If your main priority is to produce 5K Thunderbolt 3 monitor output, you don’t really need a TB3 header on the motherboard. All you’d need is dual DisplayPort inputs from the graphics card and a good way to power the GC-ALPINE-RIDGE. An ITX build presents a challenge in that you can only have one PCIe slot for the dGPU. You could use a powered PCIe riser card but those are not reliable in providing consistent power to the AIC.
AIC could be connected to an unused M.2 slot. Some ITX boards have two M.2 slots with one slot on the backside of the motherboard?
So Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac. X570 would power it at 4k/60hz but only with the igpu. Would Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB3 power it at 4k/60hz using a dedicated graphics card? I'm confused if the display port (that supports 4k/60) is over the tb3 port or it just means there is a separate display port on the board. I wanted to game at 4K/60hz.
Thanks again for all your help!
Do not get the Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac. Thunderbolt 3 on this motherboard is through an x2 PCIe connection [link]. X570 Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB3 is probably your best choice. It has the newest Titan Ridge TB3 controller through an x4 PCIe connection. Your constraints with the LG UltraFine 5K is the monitor input limitation rather than the output end of the computer. I believe it should work at 4k/60hz through the on-board Thunderbolt 3 port.
A Ryzen G processor with Radeon iGPU is not strong enough for 4K gaming so you’d need a dGPU. This can be done through graphics loopback acceleration. The feature is called Windows Hybrid graphics in Windows 10 1803 and newer versions. Each app/game can be configured manually to use the High Performance graphics card. I did a Thunderbolt 3 on AMD Ryzen build last fall with Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming-ITX/ac. This motherboard has no Thunderbolt 3 on-board so I used a GC-TITAN-RIDGE AIC through the x16 slot [link].
eGPU –> AIC TB3 Port –> iGPU –> HDMI Port –> HDMI Monitor
Your build takes things up a notch by using the Thunderbolt 3 port to provide TB3 monitor output through dGPU loopback acceleration.
dGPU –> iGPU –> On-board TB3 Port –> TB3 Monitor
but you are going to need 2x PCIe slots for the LG 5k, one for the GPU and one for the add in card no?
I have been thinking about this myself, have an urge to build a PC atm, no real need, none at all, but an urge....
@eightarmedpet We’re limited to ITX motherboard and its single PCIe slot in this topic. Therefore the aim is not to reach full 5K resolution but a workable solution for 4K/60Hz through the on-board TB3 port. A Thunderbolt 3 AIC can definitely be added to feed two DisplayPorts into it for 5K Thunderbolt 3 monitor output. As @joevt suggested, x4 PCIe to M.2 adapter to draw power may be a possibility.
The best Thunderbolt 3 motherboards are Gigabyte Designare line. I believe the X299 Designare has dual DP-IN and two Thunderbolt 3 ports with its controller directly attached to CPU.
Aye, that was my point, think I just got the wrong end of the stick with what you are were suggesting.
I've actually found a couple of small MATX cases which might be good for this type of build and not much bigger than MITX ones (although I do like the look fo the Thor).
@skol where did you end up on this?
I bought the AMD 570 board but its looking like lead times are quite long so cancelled, now trying to decide between the Intel board with
20gb limited PCIe lane TB3 or the AMD with DP in and TB3.
I know the intel one will work in some way 4K30 maybe, which will be useless, I need 4K60.
The AMD board has better TB3 implementation but getting it working is an unknown.
Edit: I'm a bloody idiot, these displays work with TB2 Macs at 4K and below, so the Intel Mobo will be fine and actually mean installing macOS will we WILDLY easier.
What Intel board?
No such thing as 20 Gb TB3 (except for the cable). Do you mean that the controller only has two PCIe lanes? That doesn't affect the 40 Gbps bandwidth which can be used for dual DisplayPort 1.2 (or DisplayPort 1.4 if Titan Ridge). The Apple Pro Display XDR can do 6K 60Hz 12bpc if you have a GPU that supports DSC. 6K using dual DisplayPort 1.4 might not be possible on PC (GC-TITAN RIDGE might not allow two HBR3 connections simultaneously without firmware update? needs testing).
I would like to see an adapter that converts DisplayPort 1.4 (with or without DSC) to dual DisplayPort 1.2 or DisplayPort 1.4 to support displays like the LG UltraFine 5K or Dell 8K from a single DisplayPort SST output now that we have GPUs that support DSC.
cheers for the reply Joe! I'm currently on page 30 of the 5K Ultrafine thread on Mac and noticed you're name on there too so appreciate your insight into this.
This is the intel Mobo: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07HYNL939/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2OAJ7377F756P&psc=1
And apologies for getting confused, yes its less its only 2 PCIe lanes I believe.
I'm not sure what the best option is for me board wise. The AMD board has better TB3 implementation and with the DP in the GPU will actually be directly connected to the screen (albeit at 4K) but the ease of installing macOS on an AMD set up is an unknown to me atm.
My last have with the 270 version of this board was a walk in the park, but then the Tb3 implementation isn't ideal and I would have to be using eGPU software to pipe the GPU though to the monitor.
The build was a success! Thanks to everyone for the help and info. No issues with the AMD board and the lg 5k ( at 4k) mobo has a 'DP in' slot then you connect that to the GPU allowing you to just connect the display via TB3. A note to anyone buying the same mobo and wants to get it working: Make sure to update the bios to the latest version as they patched tb3 support to work properly. Also the mobo requires an intel CPU cooler (this really caught me out haha) - must be to save space, the board is tiny. This is the only itx motherboard with tb3 so it's worth mentioning for anyone wanting to go SFF with the LG 5k monitor (at 4k).
Thanks for the reply and the info! I’m really torn what board to go for intel or AMD. Did you instal macOS yet? Is there a sub forum in the forums where your build would fit? Would love more details and to see some pics. Do the speakers work?
Yep Speakers, Mic, USB ports and webcam all work. 4k 60hz too. I went with a Streacom DA2 (sleek af) Ryzen 3600x, can't remember the mobo name but it's in this thread (the ASrock AMD itx tb3 one) 16gb ddr4 3200 ram, Noctua cpu cooler, Noctua case fan and Asus (stock blower which works well for small form factor) Radeon 5700xt 8GB. Haven't tried MacOS yet but I will when I next get some time off work. Went with the 5700xt for macOS compatability and at overclockers it worked out at £300 with a cash back offer ( £360 retail then £60 off for leaving a review). I was between that and a 1080ti (last Nvidia card to 'work' with MacOS) but the radeon matches it and even beats it in a few games. Running Apex Legends 1440p 144hz on my second monitor and 4k 60 high settings for single player games ( on the LG monitor with it's unbeatable 500nit brightness, panel uniformity and dci-p3 colours :D)
holy cow! Thats better than expected. I was going to be ok with Speakers and camera not working as I tend to use headphones and have no use for the camera in W10. I'll be super interested to hear how it works out if you Hack it, from what I have been reading TB3 support can be flakey so I dont hold up much hope, but I'm defo gain to give it a bash once my final parts eventually arrive...
@eightarmedpet I will say this I have tested the 5k monitor through my promise 2 pegasus 2 raid chasis via daisy change with a thunderbolt 2 to thunderbolt 3 adapter, the weird thing to my surprice is that it WORKED. but only at 2560x1440 resolution.
pretty sure its the same deal with the trash can mac pro on thunderbolt 2. so the monitor can run at thunderbolt 2 speeds you just won't get 5k res. This was in mac os maybe better in windows? not sure.
I just finished building a DAN Case A4 with the Phantom Gaming Mini-ITX AM4 motherboard. The only problem I have is that the SB cooling fan goes at 5400 rpm and it's super whiny. I'm working with a Noctua L9i + Ryzen 3700x. The SB is always at 55C no matter what I do (Played with the fan curves that is). Let me know what you've done to cool that beast down please!
@teltersat2 the fans on these x570 boards are awful! It really annoyed me and after reading up on it I decided it was safe to adjust the fan curve so it didn't kick in until it hit 70. At idle my machine is very nearly silent, as soon as I game the Vega jet turbine cranks up and drowns out any other noise, including my neighbours tv, so I can't hear the mobo fan anymore.
@guideofgalaxy thats really interesting! Are you 100% sure its 1440? Have you used Easyres?
I mentioned it in a different thread I think but I have my 5K working in Windows @4k being powered by the Vega due to the DP in and TB3 out, its a fantastic little set up, keep meaning to write a SFFPC vs eGPU post because I dont feel its as clear cut as people make out (the claims of being able to build a PC for much cheaper with much better performance are only kinda true - the type of person who has a MacBook and wants an egpu isn't the type of person who would be happy with a big plastic beige tower covered in RGB lights so the SFFPC will cost more than people claim/expect. - Example: I'm using a Louque ghost case and you are using a Dan case, both the same price as an egpu enclosure which comes with PSU).
just curious would on of those splitters work?
effectively giving you 2 display ports from you graphics card and going into one?
maybe this will give you 5k res?
@guideofgalaxy, No. That adapter is a DisplayPort 1.2 MST Hub. The input is a single DisplayPort 1.2 signal. Most GPUs have at least two DisplayPort outputs, so I don't see how a MST Hub will help.
5K on the LG UltraFine 5K requires two DisplayPort 1.2 signals. The LG UltraFine 5K requires that those signals come from Thunderbolt 3 so you need a GC-ALPINE RIDGE or GC-TITAN RIDGE or a motherboard with Thunderbolt controller and two DisplayPort inputs.
There are other displays that can do 5K or 6K or 8K without Thunderbolt and without two DisplayPort connections.
@joevt, the point of it isn't for the graphics cards sack its for the 1 display port, on the board that is the intake display port for the thunderbolt port.
there are 1.4 version of this adapter but effectively you are pluging 2 display port cables from your graphics card into the adapter and then plugging in the adapter into the motherboard inbound display port, effectively giving you 2 display port signals for thunderbolt output.
But I don't think these adapters work in reverse. So if any one has one of these and tries it let me know if it does anything for you.
But by rights, it should work with a single display port 1.4 its support to have enough brandwidth to support 8k displays so it should run at 5k.
@itsage, if you can connect a thunderbolt eGPU to itx board you could then buy one of those thunderbolt bridge pcie cards, and look the egpu into that giving you 2 display ports this could work maybe.. has any one tried it?
@guideofgalaxy, Yes it should work with a GC-ALPINE-RIDGE installed in the PCIe slot of the motherboard. Built-in Thunderbolt 3 would host the eGPU and AIC would use dual DP from eGPU to produce Thunderbolt 3 monitor output.
But I don't think these adapters work in reverse.
Correct. MST hubs only work one way.
But by rights, it should work with a single display port 1.4 its support to have enough brandwidth to support 8k displays so it should run at 5k.
I can connect a dual cable 5K display (Dell UP2715K) to a single DisplayPort 1.4 port using a DisplayPort 1.4 MST Hub. This only works in Windows since macOS doesn't support MST for multiple displays (macOS only supports MST for old 4K displays that use different streams over the same DisplayPort cable for the left and right side of the display). A similar connection should work for the LG UltraFine 5K but you still need a Thunderbolt 3 add-in card to convert the two outputs of the MST Hub to Thunderbolt for the display's Thunderbolt input.
DisplayPort 1.4 has enough bandwidth for 5K 60Hz 8bpc RGB no compression. Dual DisplayPort 1.2 has more bandwidth and therefore allows 5K 60Hz 10 bpc RGB.
DisplayPort 1.4 has enough bandwidth for 8K 30Hz 8bpc RGB (Dell UP3218K).
With DisplayPort 1.4, to get 8K 60Hz, you need to use dual cable (Dell UP3218K) or YCbCr 4:2:0 or Display Stream Compression (DSC).
For 5K 60Hz, the LG UltraFine 5K can accept dual DisplayPort 1.2, nothing else.
For 5K 60Hz, the Apple Pro Display XDR can accept a single DisplayPort 1.2 for 6 bpc, or dual DisplayPort 1.2 for 10 bpc, (I haven't seen anyone get HBR3 from single DisplayPort 1.4)
For 6K 60Hz, the Apple Pro Display XDR can accept dual DisplayPort 1.4 or single DisplayPort 1.4 with DSC.
(dual connections require Thunderbolt 3 connection)
@itsage, ok so it is possible just with a few more bits of hardware
I Don't think that ITX board has a TBT header...
it looks like those cards require that to be on the motherboard to run.
@guideofgalaxy, You don’t need the Thunderbolt 3 AIC to be fully functional in the OS. It’s there to serve as a converter of dual DP to Thunderbolt 3 monitor output only. The on-board Thunderbolt 3 port can connect to an eGPU which then feeds two DisplayPort connection to the TB3 AIC.
@guideofgalaxy, You don't need the Thunderbolt 3 AIC to be fully functional in the OS. It's there to serve as a converter of dual DP to Thunderbolt 3 monitor output only. The on-board Thunderbolt 3 port can connect to an eGPU which then feeds two DisplayPort connection to the TB3 AIC.
I don't know, have you tried this? and does what you say work wit the 5k lg monitor at full 5k resolution?
This doesn't sound right to me, what is the point of having that header is its not needed?
so then it should be possible to just put the Thunderbolt 3 AIC in a thunderbolt 3 egpu box and just run it from there with the graphics card in the actual pcie slot on the motherboard. for better performance.
@guideofgalaxy, I would never buy the LG Ultrafine 5K monitor because of its input limitation. I have tried that workaround using the GC-ALPINE-RIDGE AIC to produce TB3 monitor output in multiple builds. It worked through a TB3 to DP adapter as well as a TB3 monitor directly.
So after quite lot of late nights and tantrums I have this build working in both macOS and W10 using the new kid on the block - Open Core bootloader.
So far so good and its pretty stable (sleep issues but I dont usually use sleep on even my real Macs).
Everything works in Windows, speakers ports and camera, but as predicted its limited to 4k which isn't an issue.
In macOS only the monitor works, no additional gubbins, I may need to map my USB ports but I'm going to have to have a break with all this before I try that. Bluetooth doesn't work so I've bought a dongle and I may just buy an Airplay enabled speaker rather than try and get the onboard ones working.
One oddity is that Easy Res claims im getting 5K, but thats impossible right? I have the option for 5K @1X and 1440 @ 2X, but that can't be right? I'm using an RX5700XT which I think has that DP 1.4 with some sort of compression thing, but if that was really 5K it would be 5K in Windows too right?