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LG Ultrafine 5K+1080Ti=Awful Performance (Game Benchmarks)
 

LG Ultrafine 5K+1080Ti=Awful Performance (Game Benchmarks)  

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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: itsage

Welcome aboard @joevt and impressive first post. I have been looking for the GC-ALPINE RIDGE to use with my Test Bench. Unfortunately I have not been able to find one in the US. I wanted to use it for dual purpose. The first was to see if I could get a Thunderbolt 3 connection going straight to the CPU using the x16 PCIe slot. The second reason is for the Ultrafine 5K display.

Frys.com has them. I got two sent to Canada using borderlinx.com since they wouldn't ship to Canada for some reason. They'll ship other stuff to Canada though.

The GC-ALPINE RIDGE should work in most any PCIe slot (except the exceptions I noted) for transmitting DisplayPort over Thunderbolt 3. However, the USB controller, the NHI, and the two Thunderbolt 3 ports are not enabled unless the card is in a slot that the BIOS expects. I guess the BIOS sets some PCI registers on the card to enable those features. I suppose Intel and the add-in card makers did it this way so they could sell new motherboards/CPUs. Otherwise, people could just add Thunderbolt 3 to old computers. The Thunderbolt add-in card header is for extra sleep functionality (S3, S4/S5) and hot plug (a GPIO is used on the PCH), but that all could have been handled with some extra driver code.

Most BIOSs expect the add-in card to be in a certain PCH slot, unless it's an X99 motherboard, then in that case the slot is connected to the CPU. I have a GA-Z170X-Gaming 7 motherboard which doesn't have a Thunderbolt 3 add-in card header, but it does have a built-in Thunderbolt 3 controller. Anyway, this motherboard allows a GC-ALPINE RIDGE card to mostly work in the PCIEX4 slot for MacOS and Ubuntu but not Windows. The BIOS will not setup the add-in card if it is in the other slots.

I don't think Thunderbolt 3 can transmit PCIe faster than 22 Gbps (see page 6 of Thunderbolt3_TechBrief_FINAL.pdf ). I'm not sure how that works since the lspci command says the Thunderbolt 3 ports are PCIe 1.0 x4 (10 Gbps). Maybe the PCIe link status does not reflect the actual capabilities in this case (the bridges are internal to the Thunderbolt 3 chip).

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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
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So, I ignored everyones advice and bought an LG 5K display anyway... its beautiful in macOS but I did have a few issues in Windows but nothing a bit of trial and error won't fix.

My 1060 6GB gets 60fps in PUBG @1440 Medium settings which I imagine is a bit lower than it should be (although a quick Google suggests not?). 

I posted about how I get my set up reliably booting, but I think it comes down to just plugging in on Boot select screen.

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---

LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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willian
(@willian)
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Posted by: jzfgs

Setup:

  • 2017 MBP 15" 3,1GHz+Pro 560
  • Akitio Node w/ 1080 Ti FE
  • LG UltraFine 5K
  • Samsung 4K TV
  • Config notes: UltraFine via right TB3 bank, Node via left. Samsung via HDMI 2.0 on eGPU. All tests were run with the same instances of the games running in fullscreen windowed mode and shifted between monitors with keyboard shortcuts. I used the latest Nvidia beta drivers as of today, and the 1080 Ti had its power target turned up to 120% with no other settings touched.

Results:

  • Overwatch, 4K High (online matches and target practice)
    • Samsung: ~60FPS average, occasional 50FPS minimums
    • Internal: ~60FPS average, slightly more frequent 48FPS minimum
    • LG (1080 Ti): ~14 FPS average, 6FPS minimum
    • LG (RP 560): ~12FPS average, 6FPS minimum
  • PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (PUBG), 4K Ultra (menu performance)
    • Samsung: 58FPS average, 52FPS minimum
    • Internal: 57FPS average, 49FPS minimum
    • LG (1080 Ti): 11FPS average, 4FPS minimum
    • LG (RP 560): 10FPS average, 5FPS minimum

Conclusion:

  • UltraFine 5K performance on the 1080 Ti in this configuration is almost equivalent to Radeon Pro 560 performance (at every resolution, 1080p, 1440p, 4K).
  • At 4K, internal display performance is similar to that of the Samsung. At lower resolutions, the gap increases slightly, but either way, anything is playable at 1080p 60PFS on maximum settings with a 1080 Ti eGPU (unless you're on the UltraFine, where 1080P is a struggle even on Overwatch).
  • If anyone has any questions, let me know! I'd yet to see any raw performance numbers of this setup, so I figured I would try.
  • At this point, I'm planning to sell the Node and just build a second PC with a TB3 add in card to run my UltraFine at 5k 60Hz on Windows. I have to disable/reenable my PCIE roots every boot to fix code 12, and much of the time the UltraFine doesn't boot up at the right resolution and has to be reconnected numerous times in Windows for it to work properly.
  • Tl;dr: if you're looking into an eGPU+UltraFine 5K setup for gaming, I highly advise against it.

 

How about a UltraFine 4k + 1080Ti test?

I doubt the drawdown was due to bandwidth limit on total that is available to all TB3 ports and UltraFine 5k is taking to much by minimum requirement of TB3 protocol.

Maybe USB-C Alt Mode would perform differently than TB3. So maybe UF 4k would (awkwardly?) outperform UF 5K?

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(@liu_hongbin)
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Joined: 2 years ago
 

Finally USB type c to display port 5k cable is here 

https://betanews.com/2017/11/30/moshi-certified-5k-usbc-displayport/

https://www.moshi.com/usb-c-to-displayport-cable-5K

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Eightarmedpet
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willian
(@willian)
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Whaaat?! Will that work?!

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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
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This forum is going crackers. Unless someone is repeating me. Bought the cable. Will report back. 

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar
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GTX1070 + Sonnet Breakaway Box + Win10
GTX1070 + Razer Core V1 + Win10
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LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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goalque
(@goalque)
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Yep, bi-directional support.

"The cable also features bi-directional support to connect your DisplayPort computer to a UHD monitor with USB-C input."

But... in your case, it would be MBP<->TB3<->eGPU<->DP-to-USB-C-adapter<->LG 5K. And it might be a problem:

https://egpu.io/forums/feedback-suggestions/so-why-are-we-calling-it-10gbps-tb1/#post-25447

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Robert Avram
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Tell me if it works!
I got very good performance on a RMBP 2014 with dGPU NVIDIA GT750, Sonnet 550w, NVIDIA 1080TI.
I just put a headless display on my NVIDIA 1080TI output and I mirror that display onto my LG ULtra Fine.
Then every game uses the NVIDIA 1080ti for rendering then gets mirrored on my LG ULTRA FINE 5k.
I am getting between 30-60 FPS on games like World of Warcraft fully maxed out or heroes of the storm whereas without the EGPU i get 5-10 FPS.

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itsage
(@itsage)
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The LG Ultrafine 5K requires a Thunderbolt 3 input for 5120 x 2880 @ 60Hz. It may work through the eGPU at 3840 x 2160 @ 60Hz. Here’s Apple Support article on using the LG Ultrafine 5K.

Best ultrabooks for eGPU use

eGPU enclosure buying guide


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JohnyS
(@johnys)
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I think it does't work. LG 5K use Thunderbolt standard, no USB standard. We looking for Displayport>Thunderbolt cable. We will see...

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Eightarmedpet
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(@liu_hongbin)
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Posted by: Eightarmedpet

I’ll let you all know if it does. If it does I might give it a go with my hackintosh too. 

Thanks mate! I could't find one here in Australia.

 

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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: Liu Hongbin

Finally USB type c to display port 5k cable is here 

https://betanews.com/2017/11/30/moshi-certified-5k-usbc-displayport/

https://www.moshi.com/usb-c-to-displayport-cable-5K

That's a DisplayPort 1.3 or 1.4 cable.

Posted by: Eightarmedpet

Whaaat?! Will that work?!

No, it won't work because the LG UltraFine 5K display is a Thunderbolt display. It requires two DisplayPort 1.2 streams to be sent over Thunderbolt. It is not a DisplayPort 1.2 or DisplayPort 1.3 or DisplayPort 1.4 display.

Posted by: goalque

Yep, bi-directional support.

"The cable also features bi-directional support to connect your DisplayPort computer to a UHD monitor with USB-C input."

But... in your case, it would be MBP<->TB3<->eGPU<->DP-to-USB-C-adapter<->LG 5K. And it might be a problem:

https://egpu.io/forums/feedback-suggestions/so-why-are-we-calling-it-10gbps-tb1/#post-25447

Nope. The DP-to-USB-C-adapter won't work because it is not converting the signal to Thunderbolt. The USB-C input port of the LG 5K is connected to a Thunderbolt 3 chip in the display. The USB-C port is configured as a Thunderbolt 3 input. The other possibilities are a USB output, DisplayPort 1.2 output, HDMI 1.4 output, or USB with DisplayPort output (for USB-C docks).

Posted by: JohnyS

I think it does't work. LG 5K use Thunderbolt standard, no USB standard. We looking for Displayport>Thunderbolt cable. We will see...

The only way to convert DisplayPort to Thunderbolt is with a Thunderbolt add-in card such as a GC-ALPINE RIDGE. See my previous posts.

The moshi product page lists the follow feature:

  • Connect your DisplayPort computer to a USB-C or Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) monitor. (Bi-directional support)

This is impossible. A Thunderbolt 3 display requires a Thunderbolt 3 signal but this cable is DisplayPort only. A Thunderbolt 3 display is not a USB-C display. It should say:

• Connect your DisplayPort computer to a USB-C (not Thunderbolt 3) monitor. (Bi-directional support)

Note that the first paragraph on the product page mentions USB-C input, not Thunderbolt 3 which is correct.

For Compatibility, it says:

Do any of those actually support 5K over a single DisplayPort cable? I don’t think so. Anything with a Thunderbolt chip can only support 4K because Thunderbolt only supports DisplayPort 1.2. The MacBook uses Intel graphics and that is also limited to DisplayPort 1.2.

Are there any displays that can use a single cable for 5K input? All the 5K displays I know require two DisplayPort 1.2 connections or a Thunderbolt 3 cable passing a Thunderbolt signal containing two DisplayPort 1.2 streams.

If you can find such a display, and you have a graphics card that supports DisplayPort 1.3 or DisplayPort 1.4, then this cable will be useful. Otherwise not. The Dell UP3218K 8K display requires two DisplayPort 1.3 or 1.4 cables.

Another question: Is the DisplayPort cable specification different between 1.2 and 1.4? I can't find that information on the DisplayPort website. If not, then any DisplayPort 1.2 cable that doesn't allow DisplayPort 1.4 is out of spec and there shouldn't be a need for this 5K cable.

 

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(@liu_hongbin)
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Joined: 2 years ago
 

Hi Hongbin,

Thank you for your email.

Your LG 5K doesn't have a DisplayPort (only Thunderbolt 3), therefore, unfortunately, you won't be able to use this cable with your LG 5K monitor.

If you have any other questions or concerns at this time, please feel free to ask. We'd be happy to assist.

Best regards,

Cindy
Moshi Customer Support
www.moshi.com

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Eightarmedpet
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itsage
(@itsage)
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Posted by: Eightarmedpet

Thats £50 down the drain then… le sigh…

Sorry to hear. It may be worthwhile to see if you get 4K @ 60Hz using this cable.

MBP «» Thunderbolt 3 cable «» eGPU «» Moshi DisplayPort to USB-C cable «» LG Ultrafine 5K Display

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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
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Joined: 3 years ago
 

Aye, we shall see... fingers crossed.

Spring 2018 cant roll round quick enough for me, I want Apple to lay their cards on the table and see what "official support" gets us...

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar
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LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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willian
(@willian)
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How about UF 4k?

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Eightarmedpet
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I have a feeling it isn't going to work at all but I bought one the day they were announced, will update everyone with my findings. 

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar
GTX1060 + AKiTiO Thunder3 + Win10
GTX1070 + Sonnet Breakaway Box + Win10
GTX1070 + Razer Core V1 + Win10
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---

LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: willian

How about UF 4k?

The UltraFine 4K is a USB-C display. It uses all 4 lanes of a USB-C cable to pass a DisplayPort 1.2 signal for 4K 60 Hz. The USB functions of the display are provided by the high speed USB (USB 2.0 480 Mb/s) signals of the USB-C cable.

A DisplayPort to USB-C cable might work, but you won't be able to use any of the USB functions of the display which probably includes audio and brightness control.

 

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rawweb
(@rawweb)
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Posted by: Eightarmedpet

I have a feeling it isn't going to work at all but I bought one the day they were announced, will update everyone with my findings. 

Also very eager to hear if it works, even if at reduced resolution. I saw your post and jumped on one hoping, but after reading the email managed to cancel the order before it processed. 

2017 15" MacBook Pro + 16GB + Radeon Pro 560
2013 Mac Pro
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LG Ultrafine 5k - Dual


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rawweb
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Any news @eightarmedpet?

2017 15" MacBook Pro + 16GB + Radeon Pro 560
2013 Mac Pro
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Robert Avram
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Yes! Please update us @eightarmedpet.

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Eightarmedpet
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rawweb
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Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time. If even some level of functionality exists you could change my world!

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2013 Mac Pro
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LG Ultrafine 5k - Dual


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Eightarmedpet
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rawweb
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Bummer! I had a bit of hope 🙁

Makes me wonder if it would work with the 4k Ultrafine since that's only USB-C.

2017 15" MacBook Pro + 16GB + Radeon Pro 560
2013 Mac Pro
Blackmagic Design Radeon Pro 580
Mantiz Venus - Radeon RX 580
LG Ultrafine 5k - Dual


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jdstephens
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Damn, so theres no real solution for eGPU and the LG 5K?

Reading through I see that if I get an eGPU enclosure with 2xPCIe slots, put the GPU in one and the other has the GC-ALPINE RIDGE in it. This should then allow full eGPU support to the LG 5K? The downside is you loose the Brightness, Volume controls and the 3x USB-C slots on the back of the monitor. Or is there another way around this?

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karatekid430
(@karatekid430)
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@joevt3 I have tested GC-ALPINE RIDGE, it does not do much when simply powered without an arbitrary PCIe signal to wake it up. On the other hand, the Asrock Thunderbolt 3 AIC does DisplayPort -> Alt mode USB-C conversion when simply powered with a riser card, no connection to a computer. However, it is unlikely that it will do the same for Thunderbolt, due to security levels. It is likely that a firmware update could be made to enable this, but you would need the know-how of Intel. Anyways, I would be more certain if I had a single device that did DisplayPort over Thunderbolt - all my accessories are pure PCIe, or plain USB-C.

But everybody, I can confirm that the only way in hell right now you are using a Thunderbolt display with an eGPU is with a Thunderbolt 3 AIC, and if necessary, a whole desktop enabling the AIC. Blame the tosspots at LG for making a display with only one input source. All they needed was a mux to take the 2x DisplayPort from physical ports at the back instead of the Thunderbolt 3 controller inside the monitor. Yet no, let's make everybody's lives they touch harder than they need to be. I thought the warning sign against LG displays was their use of passive interleaved 3D. Clearly people ignored that warning.

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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: karatekid430

@joevt3 I have tested GC-ALPINE RIDGE, it does not do much when simply powered without an arbitrary PCIe signal to wake it up. On the other hand, the Asrock Thunderbolt 3 AIC does DisplayPort -> Alt mode USB-C conversion when simply powered with a riser card, no connection to a computer. However, it is unlikely that it will do the same for Thunderbolt, due to security levels. It is likely that a firmware update could be made to enable this, but you would need the know-how of Intel. Anyways, I would be more certain if I had a single device that did DisplayPort over Thunderbolt - all my accessories are pure PCIe, or plain USB-C.

But everybody, I can confirm that the only way in hell right now you are using a Thunderbolt display with an eGPU is with a Thunderbolt 3 AIC, and if necessary, a whole desktop enabling the AIC. Blame the tosspots at LG for making a display with only one input source. All they needed was a mux to take the 2x DisplayPort from physical ports at the back instead of the Thunderbolt 3 controller inside the monitor. Yet no, let's make everybody's lives they touch harder than they need to be. I thought the warning sign against LG displays was their use of passive interleaved 3D. Clearly people ignored that warning.

I tested the GC-ALPINE RIDGE in a single slot riser and it didn't work unless it was connected to a PCIe slot via the USB cable.
#59

But it did work with the IT-GO "ADP-099-31" which is a dual slot riser that comes with a CD drive bay-sized enclosure.
#73

Thunderbolt works fine with a Thunderbolt 3 to Dual DisplayPort adapter (probably the cheapest Thunderbolt device with a DisplayPort output). I think DisplayPort is at the bottom of the security levels and existing Thunderbolt 3 add-in cards don't have an option to disable it.

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JohnyS
(@johnys)
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Anybody used Thunderbolt 3 to dual DP OWC adapter?

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Eightarmedpet
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joevt
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Posted by: JohnyS

Anybody used Thunderbolt 3 to dual DP OWC adapter?

It's the same as any of the other many Thunderbolt 3 to Dual DisplayPort adapters. The old ones (such as the one from StarTech) created before the 2016 MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 3 ports might not be compatible with macOS without the tb3-enabler patch. Here's a page listing most of those adapters: Featured Products - Products | Thunderbolt Technology Community. I have the StarTech version. It allows 5K on my Dell 5K display using a single Thunderbolt 3 port. Any Thunderbolt 3 dock or device with a DisplayPort output and a second Thunderbolt 3 port can do the same (you'll need a USB-C to DisplayPort adapter connected to the second Thunderbolt 3 port).

Dual DisplayPort:

  1. ableconn-tbt3-dpx2-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter
  2. alogic-thunderbolt-3-usb-c-dual-displayport-adapter-4k-60-hz
  3. cable-matters-thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-or-single-5k-displayport-adapter-mac-windows-computers
  4. thunderbolt™-3-dual-displayport-adapter
  5. thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-displayport-adapter
  6. thunderbolt™-3-dp-dual-display-adapter-tb3dda02-msj
  7. thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-output-adapter-4k-60hz
  8. nekteck-thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-dp-displayport-adapter-converter-mac-and-windows-systems-suppo
  9. owc-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter
  10. plugable-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter-tbt3-dp2x
  11. plugable-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter-tbt3-dp2x-83
  12. sapphire-thunderbolt™-3-dual-displayport-dongle
  13. choetech-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter-mac-windows-thunderbolt-3-computers
  14. thunderbolt-3-usb-c-dual-displayport-adapter-dp-12-4k60hz
  15. sonnet-thunderbolt™-3-dual-displayport™-adapter
  16. mini-thunderbolt-3-dock-laptops-mac-and-windows-dual-displayport-4k-60hz
  17. startechcom-thunderbolt-3-dual-displayport-adapter-4k-60-hz
  18. vantec-thunderbolt™-3-dual-displayport-4k-60hz-adapter-cb-tb3dp122-design-mac-and-windows-sy
  19. thunderbolt™-3-usb-c-dual-4k-displayport-adapter

Dual HDMI:

  1. ableconn-tbt3-hdx2-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-adapter
  2. alogic-thunderbolt-3-usb-c-dual-hdmi-adapter-4k-60-hz
  3. cable-matters-thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-hdmi-adapter-mac-windows-thunderbolt-3-computers
  4. thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-hdmi-adapter
  5. thunderbolt™-3-hdmi-20-dual-display-adapter-tb3dha02-msj
  6. thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-20-output-adapter-4k60hz
  7. nekteck-thunderbolt-3-dual-4k-hdmi-adapter-converter-mac-and-windows-systems-support-two-uhd
  8. owc-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-adapter
  9. plugable-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-adapter-tbt3-hdmi2x
  10. plugable-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-adapter-tbt3-hdmi2x-83
  11. sapphire-thunderbolt™-3-dual-hdmi-dongle
  12. choetech-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-20-output-adapter
  13. usb-c-thunderbolt-v3-usb-type-c-male-dual-hdmi-adapter-hdmi-20
  14. sonnet-thunderbolt™-3-dual-hdmi-20-adapter
  15. startechcom-thunderbolt-3-dual-hdmi-adapter-4k-30hz
  16. vantec-thunderbolt™-3-dual-hdmi-20-4k-60hz-adapter-cb-tb3hd142-design-mac-and-windows-system
  17. thunderbolt™-3-usb-c-dual-4k-hdmi-adapter
Posted by: Eightarmedpet

Got a link?

Try Google. It returns this: OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dual DisplayPort Adapter

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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
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Holy cow that’s a lot of links. 
I think I remember these being discussed and they wouldn’t work as they are not bi directional, maybe?

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar
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GTX1070 + Sonnet Breakaway Box + Win10
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Vega 56 + Mantiz Venus + macOS + W10

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LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: Eightarmedpet

Holy cow that’s a lot of links. 
I think I remember these being discussed and they wouldn’t work as they are not bi directional, maybe?

Correct. A Thunderbolt 3 controller has the following interfaces/connections/pins/ports (whatever you want to call them):

  • PCIe (PCIe 3.0 x4 but some computers might only use x2)
  • DisplayPort 1.2 Input 1 (also HDMI 1.4)
  • DisplayPort 1.2 Input 2 (also HDMI 1.4)
  • Thunderbolt Port 1 (input or output, DisplayPort 1.2 or HDMI 1.4 output, USB 3.1 gen 2 host)
  • Thunderbolt Port 2 (ditto)
  • DisplayPort Output (also HDMI 1.4)

The Thunderbolt 3 to Dual DisplayPort adapters are wired something like this:

  • Thunderbolt Port 1: Thunderbolt Input
  • Thunderbolt Port 2: DisplayPort Output 1
  • DisplayPort Output: DisplayPort Output 2

What we need is:

  • DisplayPort Input 1
  • DisplayPort Input 2
  • Thunderbolt Port 1: Thunderbolt Output

The only thing matching this description is a Thunderbolt 3 add-in card like the GC-ALPINE RIDGE, the ASRock Thunderbolt 3 AIC, or the MSI Thunderbolt M3 (the MSI doesn't exist). All add-in cards use the PCIe connection of the Thunderbolt 3 controller. The GC-ALPINE RIDGE also uses the DisplayPort Output of the Thunderbolt 3 controller as an HDMI Output (all the DisplayPort ports support DP++ dual mode HDMI 1.4). The three listed add-in cards have two Thunderbolt 3 Ports. The DisplayPorts are mini (GC), full-sized (MSI), or mixed (ASRock). The ASUS ThunderboltEX 3 only has one DisplayPort input (full-sized) and the second Thunderbolt 3 output is wired as a USB-A port supporting USB 3.1 gen 2.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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