macOS External GPU Review - Out-of-Body Experiment  

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theitsage
(@itsage)
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March 29, 2018 11:59 pm  

Recap

macOS External GPU has been possible for several years thanks to the selfless work of many in our eGPU community. Most notable is the automate-eGPU script Goalque wrote that enables eGPU in 10.9 to 10.12. Today Apple officially adds this highly-anticipated capability in macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 [17E199]. It's now available to the general public but not without limitations. As released, only Thunderbolt 3 Macs can make use of external GPU with select AMD Radeon graphics cards.

The questions that immediately come to mind for many Mac users are whether there's a workaround for non-supported systems, Thunderbolt 1/2 and Nvidia graphics cards. There are no easy answers, but the ball is now in Apple's court. eGPU.io's tremendous growth was due in part to a strong Mac user base looking for external graphics card solutions. Now that Apple has officially incorporated eGPU into their Mac platform, it's high time for the folks in Cupertino to provide first-party support.

macOS External GPU

macOS External GPU: AORUS Gaming Box + Apple MacBook laptops

The Journey

My first attempt with external graphics was a few summers ago when I realized the Mac Pro tower's form factor would not return in the Mac lineup. The next logical upgrade path was through an external enclosure with PCIe slot. The Mac Pro trashcan planted this seed with its six Thunderbolt 2 ports that Apple engineers cleverly attached directly to the Xeon CPU [system block diagram]. So I hopped on that train and built an eGPU out of an AKiTiO Thunder2 enclosure. The setup process wasn't for the faint of heart. Thanks to the resources already made available on TechInferno forums moderated by Nando, I was able to piece together a Radeon RX 470 eGPU for my Macs. The software that enabled this upgrade was Goalque's automate-eGPU script.

External graphics card componentsmacOS External GPU RX 470 + AKiTiO Thunder2

Shortly after joining and learning about eGPU in macOS on TechInferno forums, Nando, Goalque, and I were banned due to conflicts of interest with the site owners. This turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It gave us a fresh start to build a new forum, fully dedicated to external graphics card solutions. eGPU.io is now the new and hopefully permanent home for eGPU enthusiasts. Our main mission has always been to make external GPU easy and accessible to all. Intel, AMD, and Thunderbolt partners share the same vision. The complete picture came together on June 5th, 2017 when Apple announced macOS external GPU support in High Sierra at WWDC.

Frequent visits from Cupertino - Dec 25th, 2016 to May 31st, 2017

High Sierra beta was available shortly after the announcement. I tested with the Sonnet Breakaway Box + RX 580 eGPU that is the very same setup Apple used for its eGPU Development Kit. While it worked, this early build was limited to the AMD Radeon RX 580 only and hot-plugging was buggy. Goalque's script worked more reliably in 10.12 at that point in time. macOS 10.13 was released fall 2017 with external graphics card support for developers only. We kept ourselves in the loop throughout macOS external GPU development process from 10.13 to 10.13.3. While there was marginal improvement following each update and additional support for Radeon Vega GPUs, no major change was in sight.

Then came 10.13.4 Beta 1, version 17E139j, and with it an initial glimpse of the public release of macOS external GPU. Beta 1 was an amazing build that refined the user experience significantly over previous versions. External GPU was now plug-and-play with almost all Thunderbolt Macs. We were beyond excited and anxious for the final release day. This excitement was short-lived. Beta 2 wreaked havoc on the hierarchy of trust. It broke compatibility with Thunderbolt 1 and Thunderbolt 2 Macs. Longtime Mac users, myself included, felt a punch to the gut when subsequent 10.13.4 Beta continued this trend, refusing to work with non-Thunderbolt 3 Macs. If you've been enjoying external graphics with your older Macs, stay with 10.13.3 until further notice.

Reality eventually set in; Apple is a control freak, and for them to add a software feature to support third-party hardware is unprecedented. As seen below, there are about a dozen of Thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosures compatible with macOS. It's likely only a handful will be macOS-certified. In the whole scheme there's a deadline to meet and the fewer Macs to focus on, the more quality assurance Apple can provide to ensure a successful launch. I remain hopeful macOS external GPU functionality will be extended to older Thunderbolt Mac systems in due time.

April 7th 2018 Update: mac_editor found a workaround to enable external GPU functionality for TB1/2 Mac on 10.13.4.

Compatible Enclosures
macOS External GPU
AKiTiO HOT
Node
Sonnet Breakaway
350 | 550 | 650 | 350D

OWC Mercury
Helios FX

HP Omen AcceleratorPowerColor
Devil Box
Asus XG
Station Pronew
AKiTiO
Node Pro
Mantiz
Venus

Asus ROG
XG Station 2
Razer
Core V2
Sonnet Breakaway
Puck
Aorus HOT
Gaming Box
Appearance
Included GPU1 ✖  |   ✖   |   ✖   |RX580
RX570RX580
Price US$
$260
$249 | $349 | $449 | $699
$319$300
$300
$330US$360$399
$550
$500$599
preview
Max PCIe bandwidth32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps 32Gbps 32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps32Gbps
PSU type-location2
SFX-intSFX-intSFX-intATX-intfATX-intAC-extSFX-intSFX-intfATX-intfATX-intAC-extfATX-int
PSU max power400W350W | 550W | 650W | 350W
550W 500W500W 330W500W550W680W500W220W450W
GPU max power3
375W300W | 375W | 475W | 225W
375W300W375W 300W400W 375W500W375W-225W
Power delivery (PD)4
15W15W | 87W | 87W | 60W 87W60W60W 15W60W x2 87W100W65W45W100W
USB-C controller
TI83TI83TI83TI83 TI83 TI83 TI83TI83TI83TI83TI83TI83
TB3 USB-C ports111111211111
Ports max bandwidth5---5Gbps5Gbps 10Gbps 10Gbps5Gbps5Gbps5Gbps-5Gbps
USB3.0 ports (+C type)5
4+14+10
5443
Ethernet port5
SATA port5
Other portsUSB-C 3.1
DPUSB-B 3.0QC
Included GPU ports2xDP,HDMI,DVI-D3xDP,HDMI

AMD: 3xDP,HDMI

Size (litres) [ visual ]
14.09
12.71
12.7116.0016.658.2312.8211.5620.037.655.073.30
Max GPU len (in/cm)
12.60 / 32.012.20/31.012.20/31.011.42/29.012.20 / 31.012.24/31.1
12.60 / 32.013.00 / 33.0
12.20 / 31.011.81/30.0-6.65 / 16.9
Weight (kg/lb)4.90/10.783.20/7.103.20/7.105.50/12.103.60/7.922.95 /6.50
3.40/7.403.60/7.92
5.10/11.224.95/10.892.38/5.252.35/5.19
Updated firmware625.125.2 | 25.2 | 25.2 | 25.1 ✔??25.2525.10125.1v2526.1 ✔ 25.1 ✔
TB3 cable length (cm)75050505050150505050505050
Vendor pagelinklinklinklinklinklink link linklinklinklinklink
Reviewlinklinkpreviewlinkuserpreviewlinklinklinklinklinkpreview
User builds
link link linklinklinklink linklinklinklink

The Good

The most obvious and welcome change is true hot-plug capability for macOS external GPU. In High Sierra 10.13 to 10.13.3, hot-plugging was partial in that the system would ask you to log out then log back in to initialize the eGPU. In 10.13.4, this is no longer the case. Provided you have compatible hardware, you'll see a brand new icon in the Top Menu bar for external graphics status. For now this icon's sole purpose is to disconnect the external graphics card safely. 10.13.4 also shows the correct identification of supported Radeon GPUs. In previous builds these cards would show up as "R9 XXX". I foresee future enhancements to include a dedicated panel in System Preferences so that users can manually select which graphics card is engaged depending on workload and energy settings.

external GPU detected notification in 10.13.3external GPU safe eject icon in 10.13.4

Clamshell mode is another highlight. This had been working intermittently depending on the build. Through six beta builds of 10.13.4, clamshell mode worked flawlessly on my late 2016 15" MacBook Pro and mid 2017 13" MacBook Pro. Sleep behavior was an improvement over previous versions too. Putting the computer to sleep while the eGPU is connected also puts the eGPU to sleep. External GPU functionality resumes working when the computer is woken up. Sleep issues may have been the deciding factor to axe Thunderbolt 1 & 2 Mac support. Using an eGPU with my Mac Pro trashcan had often caused unpredictable sleep and wake-up behaviors.

The Bad

In the current state macOS external GPU cannot provide loop-back acceleration to the internal display. This effects gaming use because the external graphics card is rendered useless without an external monitor. Professional applications that rely on OpenCL fare better because they can use all graphics cards presented in the system. In contrast AMD XConnect (Windows only) provides eGPU internal display acceleration. On the latest Adrenalin drivers, the performance difference between internal display vs. external monitor was limited to single-digit percentages.

Revision: Apple support article #HT208544 assigns the responsibility of internal display eGPU-acceleration on third-party software developers: “Pro applications and 3D games that accelerate the built-in display of an iMac or MacBook Pro. (This capability must be enabled by the application’s developer.)”

Timing for this release is rather unfortunate. Prices for graphics cards in general and AMD in specific have been inflated due to cryptomining. If you don't currently have a compatible eGPU setup, it's certainly not a good time to buy in. The recently announced Gigabyte RX 580 Gaming Box is one of the few reasonable options. For reference, this table shows all Radeon GPUs with native external graphics support in macOS High Sierra.

The Ugly

On the developer front, third-party software needs to catch up to macOS external GPU in 10.13.4. Even though it's been nearly a year since the release of 10.13 beta, many software have yet to take advantage of an eGPU. Apple's own software needs improvement too. Final Cut Pro X was working very well with eGPU up until version 10.3.4. The latest version 10.4 ironically refuses to use the external graphics card for export. Then there's the clusterfuck of software relying on Nvidia graphics cards for CUDA framework. The current Nvidia eGPU workaround may or may not survive this and ongoing macOS updates.

Last but not least is gaming in Windows. While eGPU in Bootcamp mode is neither supported nor related to this 10.13.4 release, many Mac users have been looking forward to using Thunderbolt 3 MacBook Pros as part-time gaming laptops. I wish there was better news to report. For the time being, we must continue to follow an exhaustive procedure to make use of external GPU in Bootcamp. I tried both Nvidia and AMD eGPUs with all three variations of the TB3 MacBook Pros and lived to document it. The benchmark results below demonstrate the difference between Windows vs. macOS external GPU performance.

2016 15" MacBook Pro10.13.4 RX580W10 RX58010.13.4 RXVega56W10 RXVega56
Unigine Valley36.2 FPS47.5 FPS58.8 FPS70.2 FPS
Unigine Heaven29.5 FPS46.0 FPS53.5 FPS74.1 FPS
Tomb Raider 201348.7 FPS83.0 FPS84.4 FPS124.2 FPS
Shadow of Mordor12.2 FPS70.9 FPS45.8 FPS96.5 FPS
Hitman27.4 FPS67.8 FPS28.6 FPS66.3 FPS
Dirt Rally28.6 FPS51.6 FPS72.1 FPS92.8 FPS

Mac Ecosystem

Upgrading a Mac used to mean shoving hardware components inside the computer. Apple's Thunderbolt 3 I/O only strategy on its MacBook Pro lineup is shaping the new Mac ecosystem by attaching out-of-body components. My interpretation of this add-on paradigm is similar to that of DSLR cameras. You buy the body (Mac) to get started, then invest in the lens and flash (TB3 peripheral) to get the most of your setup. A high-quality lens can last a long time and pair well to many bodies. So can a Thunderbolt eGPU enclosure with compatible Macs. Apple is seemingly positioning itself to sell Macs only as a replaceable component of a more complete computer setup.

Besides eGPU, other Thunderbolt 3 peripherals are gradually coming to the market. The LG Ultrafine 5K display is no longer the only Thunderbolt 3 monitor. Mantiz designed its new Thunderbolt 3 dock Titan to specifically cater to the MacBook Pro with matching esthetics and anodized space grey finish. There were a handful of Thunderbolt 3 external high-speed storage drives announced at CES 2018. AKiTiO recently introduced Thunderbolt 3 10Gbps Ethernet adapter. Sonnet has also started selling a Thunderbolt 3 memory card reader. These are just to name a few.

What's Next

Consumer adoption is a crucial factor in determining macOS external GPU success. Thunderbolt technology has been available in a Mac since 2011. After so many years, Thunderbolt 3 has its best shot yet with a wide range of applications, eGPU being front and center. What concerns me most is the gnawing suspicion that top-level decision makers still have doubts about the costs vs benefits of TB3 technology. Thunderbolt external graphics solutions are costly for home users, much more so for business owners. In most production environments, the rule of thumb is to never run the latest OS version. Let the tech inclined suffer through bugs for a year before the production people get the stable release. 

Next comes hardware investment. Most agencies I know still haven't upgraded the majority of their equipment to Thunderbolt 3 Macs. After being neglected for many years without a proper "pro" Mac, Apple's recent efforts excite some but leave many skeptical. Had Apple re-enabled external graphics in Thunderbolt 2 Macs, more users would be exposed to the benefits of this feature and would be more inclined to transition to the new ecosystem. Now is the time for first-party support to step up. The success of external graphics as a platform within Thunderbolt rests on the shoulders of Intel, Apple and Thunderbolt partners.

 

See also

Best ultrabooks for eGPU use

eGPU enclosure buying guide

66 external GPU build guides


goalque and nando4 liked
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goalque
(@goalque)
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March 30, 2018 2:28 am  
Posted by: theitsage

In the current state macOS external GPU cannot provide loop-back acceleration to the internal display.

Actually nothing prevents us from developing apps and games that can be accelerated on the internal display. Apple puts responsibility on developers.

"Pro applications and 3D games that accelerate the built-in display of an iMac or MacBook Pro. (This capability must be enabled by the application's developer.)"

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208544

"If an external GPU needs to send data to the built-in display, that data must first be transferred from the external GPU to the built-in GPU that drives the built-in display."

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/fundamental_components/about_multi_gpu_and_multi_display_setups/

I explained about this in my previous post:
https://egpu.io/forums/mac-setup/egpu-and-multi-screen-setup/#post-30676

automate-eGPU EFIapple_set_os.efi
--
late-2016 13" Macbook Pro nTB + Vega64@32Gbps-TB3 (Netstor HL23T) + macOS & Win10
late-2016 13" Macbook Pro nTB + GTX980/RX580@32Gbps-TB3 (Netstor HL23T) + macOS10.13 & Win10


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Zetthard
(@zetthard)
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Posts: 13
March 30, 2018 3:23 am  

I’m using mid 2014 MacBook Pro and really hope that Apple will return eGPU support for TB2 as well, including Bootcamp eGPU support. Ideally for both AMD and Nvidia graphic cards. Untill then I’m going to stay at 10.13.3.


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iSilver
(@isilver)
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March 30, 2018 3:45 am  

Unfortunately it seems that the RX 560 and below aren't supported as of now. They're not listed on the official apple support page ( https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208544), and after brief testing with my RX 560 and 10.13.4 I got the same behavior that was reported here: https://egpu.io/forums/mac-setup/akitio-node-rx-560-10-13-4-beta-black-screen/


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(@fabiana_espindola)
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March 30, 2018 4:20 am  

We're being pushed to Windows for compatibility and higher frame rates. No complaints, really.


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ikir
 ikir
(@ikir)
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March 30, 2018 6:35 am  
Posted by: Fabiana Espíndola

We're being pushed to Windows for compatibility and higher frame rates. No complaints, really.

Cmon it is a start, 10.13.4 brings a lot of fresh air. Higher frame rates depends of many things.

eGPU.it | LG 34" 4K 34UC88 curved ultrawide display
MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD --> my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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(@daniel_bolke)
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March 30, 2018 1:34 pm  

Is the "RX 580 Gaming Box" enclosure seen in the picture also supported?


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theitsage
(@itsage)
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March 30, 2018 1:38 pm  

@daniel_bolke The Gaming Box in picture is the AORUS 1080. When the Gigabyte RX 580 Gaming Box arrives, it should be compatible with Thunderbolt 3 Macs.

Best ultrabooks for eGPU use

eGPU enclosure buying guide

66 external GPU build guides


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star-affinity
(@star-affinity)
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Posts: 1
March 30, 2018 9:46 pm  

Saddening to see the frame rate results in that diagram between macOS and Windows, especially for Dirt Rally in macOS 10.13.4 compared to that of Windows – that game is the only one of the software in that diagram that I know is supposed to use Metal 2 for rendering, and despite that Windows gets about 20 more frames per second on both RX580 and RXVega56. While It’s understandable that Windows is ahead I think that difference is too big. Apple (and the developers?) still has a way to go untill macOS can be areasonable alternative to Windows for gaming. At least for the more demanding games. Oh, well...


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theitsage
(@itsage)
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March 31, 2018 1:03 am  

@star-affinity I agree the results are rather disheartening. Apple talked a big game but their actions have continuously been discouraging towards Mac users. When software developers and hardware vendors don't see an enthused user base, they will not invest heavily in the platform. To be honest with you, judging by the progress of external GPU support in High Sierra, it seems Apple did not do much until about 3 months ago.

Best ultrabooks for eGPU use

eGPU enclosure buying guide

66 external GPU build guides


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mac_editor
(@mac_editor)
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Posts: 1153
March 31, 2018 5:13 am  

@itsage to add to your points above, there are far too many issues with High Sierra besides just eGPU support and Metal that really need fixes. At least the Metal API works. Apple messed up in 2017 - this year should be focused only on optimization (and High Sierra was supposed to one). This is one of the worst releases of macOS I have ever experienced (in general, not eGPU related). Sierra is significantly better in day to day use. I can go on and on about non-eGPU issues in High Sierra. And I’ve barely used it for work. Wish we see something as solid as Sierra this year, or better yet something on par with Mountain Lion and Snow Leopard - fantastic macOS builds in my opinion.

purge-wrangler.shpurge-nvda.shset-eGPU.sh
----
Troubleshooting eGPUs on macOS
Command Line Swiss Knife
----
3 Build Guides


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nando4
(@nando4)
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March 31, 2018 5:39 am  

macOS 10.13.4 is eGPU dynamite - it breaks 82% of our documented macOS builds

Some interesting eGPU.io build statistics. There are:

2013 15" Dell Latitude E6540 HD8790M + RX580@4Gbps-EC2 (EXP GDC 8.x) + macOS 10.13.5 & Win10
2013 15" HP ZBook 15 K610M + RX580@4Gbps-EC2 (EXP GDC 8.x) + Win10
--
eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference TableeGPU Setup 1.35


goalque, Halbertus, Username and 3 people liked
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theitsage
(@itsage)
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March 31, 2018 1:51 pm  

@nando4 Thank you for compiling those statistics. 4 out of 5 existing Mac eGPU setups no longer work thanks to 10.13.4.

Best ultrabooks for eGPU use

eGPU enclosure buying guide

66 external GPU build guides


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Username
(@username)
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Posts: 177
March 31, 2018 7:49 pm  

The future is a bit pale for many of us. At least Apple do have understood that eGPUs do have a place, which is very good.
I will probably bring my rMBP up to 10.13.4 but keep my 2012 mac mini on 13.3 for the mini egpu 1070 for as long as it lasts.

My plan for the long run is to get the 580-box and a possible TB3 mac mini if Apple don't kill that line off.
I really hate having to buy me TB3 MBP only to slap it onto a desk for 99% of its life.

2012 Mac Mini + GTX1070@10Gbps-TB1 (AKiTiO Thunder3 via TB3->TB2 adapter) + macOS


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Halbertus
(@halbertus)
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Joined:1 year  ago
Posts: 25
March 31, 2018 9:54 pm  

I am done with Apple Desktops
With Apple killing off TB2 Macs for eGPU support my annoyance with their product strategy has grown so much I just can not stand it anymore. I invested a huge amount of my hard earned money in their ecosystem (Mac Pro 6,1 2013, rMBP Mid 2015) only to find out that the system’s architecture is limited by design. Graphics performance is the biggest limitation with both of my computers. While Apple have always been slamming kind of outdated processors in their computers, I was promised expandability when they released the unconventional “thrashcan” Mac Pro with Thunderbolt 2. Also the GPU in my MacBook was two years old architecture, when released in form of the MacBook Pro in Mid 2015.
Following recent development in eGPU support had me hoping for a possible upgrade path. That has come to an end now unfortunately.

Not buying a TB3 Mac
Not only do I complain for the money I feel wasted, but also I really don’t want to switch to the redesigned MacBook Pros. Touch Bar, Port Selection and Keyboard are a no-go from my perspective.

The updated iMac (Pro) will suffer from the same design flaws as we have seen in form of the nMP, totally locked up systems, while they offer TB3 and eGPU expandability it is not currently possible to drive the internal 5k Displayby eGPU without a huge.oss of performance. Target Display mode also not available means those nice screens will be thrash once the computer parts embedded will be outdated.

To sum it up, there is simply no TB3 Mac that I would consider buying.

Maybe there are use-cases different from my way of computing for which the above systems make sense. My only hope for the future of the Mac Desktop is with the promised modular Mac Pro or a redesigned  Mac mini, questionable if they can come up with a more responsible design approach. Isn’t there a possibility that the modular concept of those will be based on Thunderbolt 3?

MacBook Pro 15" Mid 2015 w/ AMD Radeon R9 M370X
Mac Pro 2013 D300 + ASUS XG Station Pro + ASUS ROG VEGA 56
5K@60HZ Dell UP2715K


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nombrescreeno
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April 1, 2018 3:09 am  
Posted by: Halbertus

I am done with Apple Desktops

Unfortunately, Apple does have a history of planned obsolescence so I'm not surprised by their actions with regard to this. Shame, really


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ikir
 ikir
(@ikir)
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April 1, 2018 9:15 am  
Posted by: nombrescreeno
Posted by: Halbertus

I am done with Apple Desktops

Unfortunately, Apple does have a history of planned obsolescence so I'm not surprised by their actions with regard to this. Shame, really

This is not true, Macs are the longer supported platform in industry.

@Halbertus
I agree with some of this issue are Apple fault, but as an owner of  a MacBook Pro 13” 2017 I love touch bar and I love the new keyboard. I owned so many computers in my life and this one is the best yet.

eGPU.it | LG 34" 4K 34UC88 curved ultrawide display
MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD --> my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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nombrescreeno
(@nombrescreeno)
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April 1, 2018 3:00 pm  

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well


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mac_editor
(@mac_editor)
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April 1, 2018 3:19 pm  
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

This is true, and I was quite annoyed with my phone slowing down. But looking into the problem specifics - the battery explanation makes sense. I have experienced crashes in colder weather as such (I even reported this while on iOS 10) and their fix solved the problem at the cost of performance of course. I am satisfied with their explanation. Even old MacBooks with over 1500 cycles like mine will sometimes just shut off at 30-40% - because they cannot handle peak currents anymore. But on the other things, definitely agree.

purge-wrangler.shpurge-nvda.shset-eGPU.sh
----
Troubleshooting eGPUs on macOS
Command Line Swiss Knife
----
3 Build Guides


ikir liked
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hoeveler
(@hoeveler)
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April 1, 2018 3:27 pm  

I think my earlier post of a NON Thunderbolt eGPU solution is getting some attention now that Apple is killing off support for TB2 eGPUs. I built this a couple years ago when my cMP was my main machine. I have since built and switched to a Windows build for my main machine and moved this eGPU setup over to the new computer, which is one of the biggest benefits - there are zero drivers needed because it’s hardware-based. Both Mac and Windows systems see this external expansion at the hardware level before POST.

At any rate, here’s my original thread: 

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/2012-mac-pro-51-cmp-gtx980ti-3x-gtx780ti-cyclone-microsystems-backplane-host-bus-adaptor-win10-or-os-x-10-11-6-el-capitan/


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(@ziggy029)
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Posts: 8
April 1, 2018 3:40 pm  

I'm holding on to my Late 2012 Mini because of the quad core CPU. If they would create a new generation quad core Mini with TB3 and SSD, I'd be handing over my money. But they won't force me into buying a MBP that doesn't really meet my needs (I use a computer on the desktop and an iPad for portablility). So until then I will stick with 10.13.3. And if becomes obsolete before there is a *suitable* TB3 Mac for my needs and budget, maybe someone will want to buy a Mantiz Venus and an RX 580 card.


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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
Prominent Member
Joined:2 years  ago
Posts: 802
April 1, 2018 5:37 pm  

Complaining about technology moving forward is a bit ridiculous.

@halbertus have you had no use out of your Mac Pro over the half decade you've had it (assume you bought it in 2013?) because unless its been sitting gathering dust waiting for the magical day when you can expand its capabilities with an external GPU it hasn't really been a waste of money has it?

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touchbar + GTX1060@32Gbps-TB3 (AKiTiO Thunder3) + Win10
2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar + GTX1070@32Gbps-TB3 (Sonnet Breakaway Box) + Win10
---
LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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hoeveler
(@hoeveler)
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Posts: 18
April 1, 2018 5:47 pm  

For me, the writing was on the wall as soon as Apple released the “trash can” MacPro. In hindsight I was 100% correct that if you need to do high-end 3D work at a professional level, Apple no longer makes the “Pro” machine they claim they do.
From the beginning and throughout the 90s and into the mid-2000s, Apple was the better choice for media professionals and artists. Meanwhile mostly because of lower prices and compatibility, Microsoft Windows was the choice for most general-purpose computers. Now in 2018 I feel like it’s flipped around. Today, macOS is the better choice for most general purpose computers that don’t need to connect to external devices because they are easy to use and generally require very little maintenance. And Windows is the better choice for computers that need to operate at a professional level and connect to different GPUs, specialized hardware like VR rigs, etc.


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(@dan_streaman)
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Joined:5 months  ago
Posts: 7
April 1, 2018 5:52 pm  

Longest supported platform ? What is your definition of “supported” ?
My super expensive Mac Pro 2013 (I bought for video processing) was never updated and has been obsolete for several years now. I waited for 5 years for a GPU upgrade, even at Apple’s preposterous prices, to no avail. I have my Akitio node sitting under my desk because I was convinced that Apple would have repaired to their horrible lack of attention by enabling external GPU in OS X to compensate for the inexcusable lack of upgrades, and... surprise surprise... the Mac Pro 2013 is not supported !
Is this your definition of “supported” ?
Oh, and I am currently writing this reply with my iPad Air which Apple has slowed down (on purpose) so much that the characters I am typing do not appear on screen in realtime. I have installed the latest iOS update, but it did not fix the battery “software issue” (i.e. obsolescence scam) on iPads. Seems their lawyers got away with only “fixing” phones.
I wish my iPad was not supported anymore since that infamous iOS update that decided to slow it down, and decided that I cannot revert back to a previous release.
Thanks for your kind “support”, Apple. Now excuse me, but I should go finish assembling my new PC with Windows 10.


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(@dan_streaman)
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Posts: 7
April 1, 2018 6:19 pm  

I have been waiting 5 years for a GPU upgrade for my Mac Pro 2013, to no avail.
Now Apple could have repaired this inexcusable lack of attention to Pro customers by allowing eGPU via TB2 in the latest OS X, but they decided that we do not deserve it.
I kind of feel we do not deserve it because they want more money.
My Mac Pro 2013 is sitting in the closet. I had “upgraded” it with a Mac Pro 2009 properly hacked to 12 cores and a modern NV GPU. So much better.
Now it is time for me to move forward: bye bye Apple.
I am assembling a new PC with pro[per] hardware and Windows 10.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


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(@dan_streaman)
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April 1, 2018 6:24 pm  

Higher frame rates depends on hardware and software. Hardware is the same, the app software is the same, the OS software is not.
Guess what the problem is... 🙂


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(@dan_streaman)
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Posts: 7
April 1, 2018 6:38 pm  

@Eightarmedpet: I also had a lot of use for many years for another system that was not upgradable: the Commodore 64.
But it was not named “Commodore Pro 64”.
A system that cannot be quickly upgraded to allow its Pro owner to compete by using the latest technology against other Pros, cannot have “Pro” in its label.
But Apple seems to think that we are willing to buy every iteration of their underwhelming hardware because it has a “Pro” in its name.
Apple is now a home-computer company. It is not enough to put a “Pro” sticker on a home computer.


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ikir
 ikir
(@ikir)
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Posts: 733
April 1, 2018 9:48 pm  
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

Only if the battery is under 80% of life, this is chemistry not a scandal. Otherwise you can choose your iPhone to turn off while under heavy load... like and eGPU with insufficient PSU. off topic anyway

eGPU.it | LG 34" 4K 34UC88 curved ultrawide display
MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD --> my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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ikir
 ikir
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April 1, 2018 9:58 pm  
Posted by: Dan Streaman

Longest supported platform ? What is your definition of “supported” ?
My super expensive Mac Pro 2013 (I bought for video processing) was never updated and has been obsolete for several years now. I waited for 5 years for a GPU upgrade, even at Apple’s preposterous prices, to no avail. I have my Akitio node sitting under my desk because I was convinced that Apple would have repaired to their horrible lack of attention by enabling external GPU in OS X to compensate for the inexcusable lack of upgrades, and... surprise surprise... the Mac Pro 2013 is not supported !
Is this your definition of “supported” ?
Oh, and I am currently writing this reply with my iPad Air which Apple has slowed down (on purpose) so much that the characters I am typing do not appear on screen in realtime. I have installed the latest iOS update, but it did not fix the battery “software issue” (i.e. obsolescence scam) on iPads. Seems their lawyers got away with only “fixing” phones.
I wish my iPad was not supported anymore since that infamous iOS update that decided to slow it down, and decided that I cannot revert back to a previous release.
Thanks for your kind “support”, Apple. Now excuse me, but I should go finish assembling my new PC with Windows 10.

This is you opinion, I have soo many costumers working with old Macs and they are fine because they have modern os, security and stability. Apple Made errors sometimes,  it for example high Sierra is very fast, iOS 11.3 is much more faster. Optimization matters. Most of time users which are not tech savvy blame Apple when the fault is a old battery, broken hard drive, bad software storing cpu cycles. Go to build your PC you will have some PROs and some CONs. And BTW there is no slowing down on any iPads, which have several years, but I can believe it seems slow now, but check another tablet of the same year with the same software. Android usuallly terribly on older devices and can’t update at all.
sell your Mac Pro it is a good machine which have a high value even today because it is a Mac and build a PC is you think it is a better platform for work but don’t spread FUD about planned obsolescence there is a really too much ignorance. Some months ago there were an article about older iPhones running faster with newer os, especially on GPU task than original os. But obviously everyone is talking about Apple slowing down iPhone... which is only if the battery needs exchange like on any device in the world.

eGPU.it | LG 34" 4K 34UC88 curved ultrawide display
MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD --> my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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nombrescreeno
(@nombrescreeno)
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April 1, 2018 10:39 pm  
Posted by: ikir
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

Only if the battery is under 80% of life, this is chemistry not a scandal. Otherwise you can choose your iPhone to turn off while under heavy load... like and eGPU with insufficient PSU. off topic anyway

Respectfully disagree. Other phones don't do this

And between things like FireWire, 3.5mm headphones, and TB1/2 now, Apple has never cared about ending widely adopted hardware standards of existing users


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hoeveler
(@hoeveler)
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Joined:1 year  ago
Posts: 18
April 1, 2018 11:38 pm  
Posted by: ikir
Posted by: Dan Streaman

Longest supported platform ? What is your definition of “supported” ?
My super expensive Mac Pro 2013 (I bought for video processing) was never updated and has been obsolete for several years now. I waited for 5 years for a GPU upgrade, even at Apple’s preposterous prices, to no avail. I have my Akitio node sitting under my desk because I was convinced that Apple would have repaired to their horrible lack of attention by enabling external GPU in OS X to compensate for the inexcusable lack of upgrades, and... surprise surprise... the Mac Pro 2013 is not supported !
Is this your definition of “supported” ?
Oh, and I am currently writing this reply with my iPad Air which Apple has slowed down (on purpose) so much that the characters I am typing do not appear on screen in realtime. I have installed the latest iOS update, but it did not fix the battery “software issue” (i.e. obsolescence scam) on iPads. Seems their lawyers got away with only “fixing” phones.
I wish my iPad was not supported anymore since that infamous iOS update that decided to slow it down, and decided that I cannot revert back to a previous release.
Thanks for your kind “support”, Apple. Now excuse me, but I should go finish assembling my new PC with Windows 10.

This is you opinion, I have soo many costumers working with old Macs and they are fine because they have modern os, security and stability. Apple Made errors sometimes,  it for example high Sierra is very fast, iOS 11.3 is much more faster. Optimization matters. Most of time users which are not tech savvy blame Apple when the fault is a old battery, broken hard drive, bad software storing cpu cycles. Go to build your PC you will have some PROs and some CONs. And BTW there is no slowing down on any iPads, which have several years, but I can believe it seems slow now, but check another tablet of the same year with the same software. Android usuallly terribly on older devices and can’t update at all.
sell your Mac Pro it is a good machine which have a high value even today because it is a Mac and build a PC is you think it is a better platform for work but don’t spread FUD about planned obsolescence there is a really too much ignorance. Some months ago there were an article about older iPhones running faster with newer os, especially on GPU task than original os. But obviously everyone is talking about Apple slowing down iPhone... which is only if the battery needs exchange like on any device in the world.

I don’t mean this to sound negative, but it saddens me to see people stick by Apple’s side after so many times they have neglected the “pro” market. I used to be the same. I used to stay with my Apple products, sometimes upgrading them beyond their life (like my current classic Mac Pro). But when Apple continues to neglect the pro market and then release products that are 3-4x higher price than they need to be simply because they slap “Pro” on the name, and use Xeon processors (Xeons are server-grade) or ECC RAM (error correcting RAM is only needed for mission-critical scientific visualization). These are all reasons for saving ones money and building a lightning-fast Windows machine for 3-4 times less that’s as fast or faster.


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Jyin
 Jyin
(@jyin)
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Joined:8 months  ago
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April 2, 2018 1:36 am  

So, theoretically speaking. 

For those with nMP’s, couldn’t you move the SSD to the TB2 and use m2 for the GPU?

J


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hoeveler
(@hoeveler)
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Joined:1 year  ago
Posts: 18
April 2, 2018 5:55 am  
Posted by: hoeveler

I think my earlier post of a NON Thunderbolt eGPU solution is getting some attention now that Apple is killing off support for TB2 eGPUs. I built this a couple years ago when my cMP was my main machine. I have since built and switched to a Windows build for my main machine and moved this eGPU setup over to the new computer, which is one of the biggest benefits - there are zero drivers needed because it’s hardware-based. Both Mac and Windows systems see this external expansion at the hardware level before POST.

At any rate, here’s my original thread: 

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/2012-mac-pro-51-cmp-gtx980ti-3x-gtx780ti-cyclone-microsystems-backplane-host-bus-adaptor-win10-or-os-x-10-11-6-el-capitan/

Theoretically speaking, if you can adapt the m2 slot to PCIe, you could then use my cylone microsystems backplane solution to add as many GPUs as you want.


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ikir
 ikir
(@ikir)
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Joined:2 years  ago
Posts: 733
April 2, 2018 6:13 am  
Posted by: nombrescreeno
Posted by: ikir
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

Only if the battery is under 80% of life, this is chemistry not a scandal. Otherwise you can choose your iPhone to turn off while under heavy load... like and eGPU with insufficient PSU. off topic anyway

Respectfully disagree. Other phones don't do this

And between things like FireWire, 3.5mm headphones, and TB1/2 now, Apple has never cared about ending widely adopted hardware standards of existing users

Every device do this, they simply turn off. Apple only made that if it happens one time, the peak load will be limited, so the phone doesn’t shut more. I work as an IT tech since 12 years and stop saying no sense. Every PC and Android phone turn off if the battery is weak under heavy load. Apple just saved your ass in this case, anyway you can choose to ignore the safe limit with iOS 11.3 and then blame Apple if your 3-4 yers battery turn off everything because the user don’t change it.
users always whine without knowing how things works.
enough OT also because everyone who wants to whine will continue anyway without understanding what the “scandal” was about.

eGPU.it | LG 34" 4K 34UC88 curved ultrawide display
MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD --> my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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(@dan_streaman)
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April 2, 2018 4:00 pm  
Posted by: ikir
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

Only if the battery is under 80% of life, this is chemistry not a scandal. Otherwise you can choose your iPhone to turn off while under heavy load... like and eGPU with insufficient PSU. off topic anyway

Chemistry, uh ? My iPad was perfectly working before that infamous iOS upgrade and I only use it for email and web. Never had a problem with it turning off unexpectedly. Now it is so ridiculously slow that I can’t stand using it. Virtually bricked.
This is simply planned obsolescence. Adding insult to injury, Apple thought we were so dumb not to notice the scam.
My Android devices, even older than the iPad, still run at the same speed without sudden reboots. And if something will ever happen, I can just replace the battery (which is what Apple should offer for a small fee, if they were a serious company and they really cared about our user experience).


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hoeveler
(@hoeveler)
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April 2, 2018 4:25 pm  
Posted by: Dan Streaman
Posted by: ikir
Posted by: nombrescreeno

Maybe I should rephrase, but they certainly had no issues with gimping iPhones after a year with the whole battery scandal, and they killed FireWire without a well-supported replacement at first as well

Only if the battery is under 80% of life, this is chemistry not a scandal. Otherwise you can choose your iPhone to turn off while under heavy load... like and eGPU with insufficient PSU. off topic anyway

Chemistry, uh ? My iPad was perfectly working before that infamous iOS upgrade and I only use it for email and web. Never had a problem with it turning off unexpectedly. Now it is so ridiculously slow that I can’t stand using it. Virtually bricked.
This is simply planned obsolescence. Adding insult to injury, Apple thought we were so dumb not to notice the scam.
My Android devices, even older than the iPad, still run at the same speed without sudden reboots. And if something will ever happen, I can just replace the battery (which is what Apple should offer for a small fee, if they were a serious company and they really cared about our user experience).

Apple DOES offer battery replacement here. And if you’re not covered, it costs about $75. Now can we get back on-topic? 🙂
https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-power


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