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Radeon VII Gaming on Windows 10 TB2  

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speedyconzales
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I use the Radeon VII on Windows 10 in a Razer Core X enclosure through TB2 adpater. I got it running under windows and mac. The problem is that the Radeon VII produces 30 to 40 fps max in for example Destiny 2 (Full HD). The same amount I can get if I am using my dGPU. And no, it is using the eGPU at that moment. Radeon VII max temperature at that time about 87 degrees Celsius under full load.
I don't know what to do... guess I have to give up on accelerating the graphics performance of my iMac. That is a reference what the card should be able to do, keep in mind though that u have approximately 20% or more performance loss out of the box when using the card as an eGPU instead of the use in a legit gaming rig (and I use TB2 because I simply have no TB3 available on my iMac): https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-vii-16-gb-review,18.html
Nevertheless the performance I get now is more than half the performance it should achieve.

Any ideas folks?

This topic was modified 7 months ago

iMac Retina 5k, 27-inch, Late 2015; TB2>TB3; Razer Core X; Radeon VII


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OliverB
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@speedyconzales,
the limited bandwidth of TB2 can be a problem in some games, but doesn't have to be. Some games perform almost equal in TB2 like TB3.
Unfortunately some games perform quite bad with Radeon VII as you can in this comparison.

I don't have Destiny 2, could you post some other benchmarks in order to compare? Perhaps a couple of games of those games.?

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speedyconzales
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I tried some world of tanks now. The results are on a Full HD 144hz monitor: average of about 100 fps with the Radeon VII. But showing a weird pattern fps going from 110 to 70 and up again repeatedly, even if there is no input at all (just sitting at one place and waiting). The dedicated GPU of my iMac achieves about 55 fps on Full HD but much more stable. 50 to 60 fps most of the time, not showing that weird pattern of fps going down and up again.

Then I investigated this issue: The weird pattern was caused by the AMD Radeon WattMan window which I had displayed on the internal monitor. As soon as I closed the window or switched to external monitor only, the fps were much more stable. But still only about average 115 fps on Full HD. Despite the fact that world of tanks is not my type of game, that is no overwhelming performance (including all the bugs and weird dependencies). Sadly my experience with other games was even worse. Guild Wars 2, which I play a lot, managed to run unplayable with the eGPU plugged in. With the dGPU I get more fps than with the eGPU. Why is that? I tried out Fortnite, a game I also do not play, but for some reason I wanted to test it out. There I got 140+ fps on Full HD. Whereas Destiny 2 seems to take no advantage of the eGPU. I do not have other games as benchmarks at the moment. But I did the luxmark benchmark on macOS and windows to verify a functioning graphics card and at that point it seemed very well functioning.

macOS windows
?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fham1-1.fna&oh=c95a56bd4b6625e284b01039efe3197e&oe=5D6664AF ?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fham1-1.fna&oh=8848d5a4912cc24119729229bc06c246&oe=5D3AEFE2

My question now is, which is the most powerful NVIDIA card which is "supported" on both OS (mac and windows)? With supported I do not mean officially supported by Apple, but you can get it running somehow. As I first checked, it seemed that the RTX cards are not supported at all under macOS. Therefore I decided to go with the competitor, the Radeon VII. Especially as I saw a lot of benchmarks   
which indicated that it could achieve similar results like the RTX 2080. But now... I am very disappointed by the results. Especially when running in an eGPU enclosure, I think that NVIDIA is still the way to go (after all that information and personal experience of the last couple days). But I do not wanna buy a card that can only run on windows. Then I would rather save my money and buy a full gaming rig to get the last 20% performance of the graphics card, too.

This post was modified 7 months ago

iMac Retina 5k, 27-inch, Late 2015; TB2>TB3; Razer Core X; Radeon VII


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(@gareth_rees)
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None of this makes any sense. The Vega VII is a Vega 64 with less stream processors, higher clocks and 2 more stacks of HBM2. 

Try running the HBM2 at 600Mhz instead of 1Ghz. That's the only thing I can think that's causing the weirdness. Maybe 1TB bandwidth is too much.

The Titan V CEO Edition 32GB should have the same issues in eGPU mode.

This post was modified 7 months ago

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goalque
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I didn't experience any lag with Division 2:

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/2018-13-macbook-pro-radeon-vii32gbps-tb3-win10-1809-goalque/

Did you try disabling the dGPU completely? What are your switchable graphics settings?
https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/dh-017#faq-Accessing-Switchable-Graphics-Menu

TB2 is often the bottleneck, especially in CPU bound games.

This post was modified 7 months ago

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OliverB
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Posted by: speedyconzales

My question now is, which is the most powerful NVIDIA card which is "supported" on both OS (mac and windows)? With supported I do not mean officially supported by Apple, but you can get it running somehow. As I first checked, it seemed that the RTX cards are not supported at all under macOS. 

@speedyconzales
The most powerful nVidia card supported by Windows and MacOSX Mojave is GeForce GTX Titan Black


But consider that it's 5 years old and it performs in the league of a GTX1060 or RX580, even though it has some interesting features like FP64 performance and better chip quality.


The next best choice is either (A GTX780Ti 6GB doesn't exist, that's the Titan Black):
-GTX 780 Ti 3GB
-GTX 780 6GB

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speedyconzales
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Posted by: goalque

TB2 is often the bottleneck, especially in CPU bound games.

I will go with this statement. Especially Guild Wars 2 is a heavy CPU game and for some reason, if I use the eGPU, CPU usage is only about 20%. When I am playing with dGPU CPU usage is much higher, as you would expect. I do not know what is causing this. I tried disabling dGPU completely, therefore in the AMD settings application there is no tab for switchable graphics anymore. I will go with the TB2 causing this major problems.

This post was modified 7 months ago

iMac Retina 5k, 27-inch, Late 2015; TB2>TB3; Razer Core X; Radeon VII


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goalque
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OliverB
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@speedyconzales 
Typically DirectX 9 games are so old they get easily hundreds of FPS in eGPU setups, too.

If you want (and I can get the game), I can test Guild Wars 2, too, on either a TB2 and TB3 system. I don't have a Radeon VII anymore so I can test it with GTX 1080 Ti, Radeon RX580 or GTX Titan Black. I do expect easily > 100 FPS on every system/gpu combination. I would even bet it's far beyond 200 FPS on TB3/GTX1080Ti. Tell me your exact resolution and preset of the game.
I can try this DX9DX12 wrapper, too. It's intriguing.

EDIT: On which OS are you playing Guild Wars 2?

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goalque
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The Guild Wars 2 seems to have performance issues on desktop PCs as well:

"I can only break 100 FPS when settings are at absolute minimum and I'm staring at a wall."

https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=121091
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a8hhs1/performance_issues_and_the_support_towards_them/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

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speedyconzales
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Posted by: goalque

https://github.com/megai2/d912pxy

Tried it! Really nice project there. Works relatively fine. Results: eGPU performance is much better! The game is playable now. But the dGPU is still performing better than the eGPU. Much more stable. Especially with the boost of that mod. My dGPU still outperforms the eGPU.

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OliverB
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On Desktop PCs a 2012 Game should be able to do over 400FPS with a high end GPU. I looks as though it is really very bad optimised. When I get my hands on a copy I will do some tests.

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speedyconzales
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Posted by: OliverB

EDIT: On which OS are you playing Guild Wars 2?

I play on windows 10. The reference for me was a friends gaming rig with an i7 8700k and a GTX 1070. Results depending on the area you play but up to 180 fps on Full HD on max settings, except the render sampling set to native. The dGPU Radeon R9 M395X now with the mod achieves about 80+ fps. The eGPU up to 100 but very unstable sadly. So the dGPU ist still a better choice for playing GW2 for me at the moment.

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speedyconzales
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Posted by: OliverB

On Desktop PCs a 2012 Game should be able to do over 400FPS with a high end GPU. I looks as though it is really very bad optimised. When I get my hands on a copy I will do some tests.

It is very bad optimised. But aside from GW2, Destiny 2 as well seems to have its problems with the eGPU setup in particular. I mentioned this in the first post with reference what the graphics card could be able to achieve. I sadly do not have a lot of other games for benchmarking. This was a try to get more into PC Gaming. I managed to get it running under both OS, but it was and still is not a smooth experience at all. Maybe the TB3toTB2 adapter workaround makes things worse for me.

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goalque
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Posted by: speedyconzales

 The dGPU Radeon R9 M395X now with the mod achieves about 80+ fps. The eGPU up to 100 but very unstable sadly. So the dGPU ist still a better choice for playing GW2 for me at the moment.

What do you mean by "unstable"? Isn't 100 better than 80+? Have you tried vsync/AMD freesync?

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OliverB
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Posted by: speedyconzales

I sadly do not have a lot of other games for benchmarking. This was a try to get more into PC Gaming. I managed to get it running under both OS, but it was and still is not a smooth experience at all. Maybe the TB3toTB2 adapter workaround makes things worse for me.

@speedyconzales 
Unfortunately I don't have Guild Wars 2 (yet). There are quite a couple of games in this comparison where the benchmark is either gratis or the game/demo is gratis or really very cheap. If you get some of those games we could compare the results. I have both, a TB3 and a TB2 system, so we could even compare better.

On this link a lot of games are listed with built-in benchmark and some of them are for free.

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mac_editor
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Posted by: goalque

The Guild Wars 2 seems to have performance issues on desktop PCs as well:

"I can only break 100 FPS when settings are at absolute minimum and I'm staring at a wall."

https://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=121091
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a8hhs1/performance_issues_and_the_support_towards_them/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3ajnso/bad_optimalization_in_gw2/csdnn3n/

The third link provides quite a decent explanation of the performance issues with GW2. Compounded by the fact we are discussing performance over TB2, and potential issues with gaming performance in eGPU configuration with RVII, the observed performance may be plausible.

My experience with TB2 eGPU gaming was mostly positive (with a mid-tier card RX480), though it varied disproportionately based on the title (Forza Horizon 3 was essentially always unplayable for me in any configuration, for example, while for something like FIFA, pushing 4K was possible).

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OliverB
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Forza Horizon 3/4 really stress the H2D bandwidth.  I couldn't get over 75 FPS no matter which GPU or resolution in TB3. For TB2 this limit is even much lower.

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goalque
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OliverB
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Posted by: goalque

@oliverb
Another good example - Ryse: Son of Rome

https://egpu.io/forums/thunderbolt-enclosures/a-call-for-measurements-isolating-the-thunderbolt-effect/paged/3/#post-10255
https://egpu.io/forums/thunderbolt-enclosures/alert-akitio-node-half-h2d-bandwidth-issue/paged/4/#post-6534

@goalque 
thank you for the link, this PCI Express Scaling Analysis is most interesting and can forecast the TB2/TB3 performance.  If a game doesn't change a lot between x4 , x8 or x16, it's supposed to perform quite well on eGPU setups.

e.G. "Alien Isolation" is very well optimised game and I get 180 FPS in my eGPU setup. As we can see in this Scaling Analysis it has almost the same FPS for x4 and x8.  All the contrary is "Ryse", probably it's not even worth trying on eGPU setups.

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OliverB
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It's most intriguing that most games do not change a lot of from x4 to x8 or x16. This is consistent with my observation and the fact that eGPU setups perform very well mostly.

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(@gareth_rees)
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Posted by: OliverB

It's most intriguing that most games do not change a lot of from x4 to x8 or x16. This is consistent with my observation and the fact that eGPU setups perform very well mostly.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_RTX_2080_Ti_PCI-Express_Scaling/

These results are promising for the future. None of it explains the RVII's crap performance. I'll test Ryse tomorrow or the day after, I'm curious as I saw the link earlier today.

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speedyconzales
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Posted by: goalque
Posted by: speedyconzales

 The dGPU Radeon R9 M395X now with the mod achieves about 80+ fps. The eGPU up to 100 but very unstable sadly. So the dGPU ist still a better choice for playing GW2 for me at the moment.

What do you mean by "unstable"? Isn't 100 better than 80+? Have you tried vsync/AMD freesync?

Unstable:
Sometimes fps dropping from 100 down to 65. With eGPU it seems to have a wider range of fps variability (even worse if I dare to play a youtube video on the internal screen while playing on the external Full HD monitor -> drops to mid 30 fps). With dGPU fps are much more stable. Never saw that big fps drops when playing videos on the internal screen while playing on the external monitor when using the dGPU. I prefer stability over peak performance. V-Sync and FreeSync always off. With an 144hz monitor I get no screen tearing with that amount of fps. No need to turn it on.

@oliverb
I will test some other games if I can. I will check the list for free games to benchmark.

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OliverB
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Posted by: Gareth Rees

These results are promising for the future. None of it explains the RVII's crap performance. I'll test Ryse tomorrow or the day after, I'm curious as I saw the link earlier today.

@gareth_rees
It's not precise to say that the RVII performs generally bad. It just some particular games. In most games it's really strong. The more I re-evaluate my findings and other analyses the more I come to the conclusion that there is correlation between RVII performing bad and the game being badly optimised. Two examples:

Wolfenstein - The New Order: It's badly optimised for lower bandwidths, performing bad generally in eGPU setups. and especially lower bandwidth.
RadeonVII is doing terrible, frames sometimes drop under 20 FPS

Wolfenstein II - The New Colossus: Completely new Engine, Vulkan, well optimised, hardly a difference between x4, x8 or x16.
RadeonVII is doing great, constant 150 FPS.

Just two examples which may give a clue about what is happening.

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speedyconzales
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That is very interesting and explains why some games do have more fps degradation from TB3 to TB2 than others. I feel more enlightened now, thanks to you guys. That game specific aspect is way more significant than I thought it would be. That said it is possible that TB2 performs quite well like TB3 performance, but in other games it is also possible to get only half of the performance the graphics card is actually able to achieve, when plugged into a PCIe x16 3.0 slot.
Maybe that fps degradation effect related to the bandwidth is more present on the Radeon VII than on the GTX 1080 Ti. Causing the bad https://egpu.io/forums/builds/2018-15-macbook-pro-rp560x-radeon-vii32gbps-tb3-razer-core-x-gtx-1080-ti32gbps-tb3-asus-xg-station-pro-win10-oliverb/#post-5669 2" target="true">benchmarks of the Radeon VII with a relative high difference to the 1080. I guess that this difference is less on desktop pc application, like the first

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(@gareth_rees)
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Posted by: speedyconzales

That is very interesting and explains why some games do have more fps degradation from TB3 to TB2 than others. I feel more enlightened now, thanks to you guys. That game specific aspect is way more significant than I thought it would be. That said it is possible that TB2 performs quite well like TB3 performance, but in other games it is also possible to get only half of the performance the graphics card is actually able to achieve, when plugged into a PCIe x16 3.0 slot.
Maybe that fps degradation effect related to the bandwidth is more present on the Radeon VII than on the GTX 1080 Ti. Causing the bad https://egpu.io/forums/builds/2018-15-macbook-pro-rp560x-radeon-vii32gbps-tb3-razer-core-x-gtx-1080-ti32gbps-tb3-asus-xg-station-pro-win10-oliverb/#post-5669 2" target="true">benchmarks of the Radeon VII with a relative high difference to the 1080. I guess that this difference is less on desktop pc application, like the first
Therefore another downgrade from TB3 to TB2 generates an even higher difference between those cards at the moment. That is my conclusion at the moment. Mostly software/driver related issue then, I would assume.

Well, the 980 performs like crap in Ryse @ 1x or 4x but the FuryX lost next to nothing

Same with WoW: LoD

So it depends on the card AND the game. The Radeon VII is pending investigation. I'm so tempted to get one O_O

Posted by: OliverB
Posted by: Gareth Rees

These results are promising for the future. None of it explains the RVII's crap performance. I'll test Ryse tomorrow or the day after, I'm curious as I saw the link earlier today.

@gareth_rees
It's not precise to say that the RVII performs generally bad. It just some particular games. In most games it's really strong. The more I re-evaluate my findings and other analyses the more I come to the conclusion that there is correlation between RVII performing bad and the game being badly optimised. Two examples:

Wolfenstein - The New Order: It's badly optimised for lower bandwidths, performing bad generally in eGPU setups. and especially lower bandwidth.
RadeonVII is doing terrible, frames sometimes drop under 20 FPS

Wolfenstein II - The New Colossus: Completely new Engine, Vulkan, well optimised, hardly a difference between x4, x8 or x16.
RadeonVII is doing great, constant 150 FPS.

Just two examples which may give a clue about what is happening.

 

I'll pick up the game this week to see what's up

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OliverB
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About Wolfenstein - The New Order:
"Another major drawback of the engine is that it is limited to 60 FPS."

I was wondering why I couldn't get over 60 FPS with the GTX1080Ti in my comparison. in both "The New Order" and "Old Blood" (same engine).

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(@gareth_rees)
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Cap can be removed, but that would probably just hurt PCI-E even more: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/849-id5-tweaker/

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OliverB
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Posted by: Gareth Rees

Cap can be removed, but that would probably just hurt PCI-E even more: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/849-id5-tweaker/

Not really. Instead of 60 FPS I got 105 FPS with the EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2 in 2560x1440p Ultra settings in "New Order". This is really a decent performance for OpenGL.

PS: This link works great for disabling the cap.

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OliverB
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In any case, you should try a Vulkan game. The quality of this graphics API is beyond belief.

The main target of Vulkan was to reduce the so called "Draw Calls", which is the communciation between CPU and GPU. That means: It's perfect for eGPU setups, where the H2D Bandwidth is clearly inferior to Desktops.

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Off topic, but I just tried Borderlands 2 using my MX130 as Physx and it works LOL

I have Doom but it's a lot of GB to install.

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OliverB
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Posted by: Gareth Rees

Off topic, but I just tried Borderlands 2 using my MX130 as Physx and it works LOL

I have Doom but it's a lot of GB to install.

I actually install all my stuff on a NAS.
I still can't believe that not everyone is doing it?! You get Terrabytes and Terrabyes for almost free and with Raid5 your data is quite safe (It's not quite a backup, but a 99.99% security against data loss).

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OliverB
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Every computer "freak" should have a:
1) Computer
2) NAS RAID 5
3) external SSD NVMe drive (not SATA h*l*y sh*t)

2) und 3) are actually the best invested money ever. And even it's not expensive. 2) gives you safe Terrabytes for low, 3) saves you hours and hours of frustration.
2) is for all your data and big programs (aka games)
3) is for system backups and data transfer

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mac_editor
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@oliverb you forgot eGPU ;p

Jokes aside, that would be my ideal setup too. But I move a whole lot and lugging around eGPUs is more than enough. Once I'm settled I'm setting up a NAS for sure.

This post was modified 7 months ago

purge-wrangler.shpurge-nvda.shset-eGPU.shautomate-eGPU EFI Installer
2018 MacBook Pro 15" RP560X + RX 5700 XT (Mantiz Venus)


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OliverB
(@oliverb)
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Joined: 1 year ago
 

@mac_editor
ahh, really... I forget to mention eGPU because it was automatically included in my thinking :p lol

I had a NAS long time before eGPU. I had a couple of hd crashes, but with Raid 5 there was no data loss anymore. TimeMachine, Shared Folder, Media Server, Virtual Machine,  Backup Scripts, etc... The entire value of such device is huge.

PS: I hadn't had a hd crash for years now. While the capacity of HDs is not very much increasing nowadays, but the quality gets better. The HDs I am using in my NAS now have a 1.000.000 hours life span this is not bad at all.

This post was modified 7 months ago

2018 15" MBP & 2015 13" MBP connected to RTX2080Ti GTX1080Ti GTX1080 Vega56 RX580 R9-290 GTX680


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Eightarmedpet
(@eightarmedpet)
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Joined: 3 years ago
 

Going a bit off topic here but what advantages do you guys see in NAS drives and NVMe externals? Maybe warrants a separate post?
Personally I have neither, but as mentioned often, I'm not the most tech savvy guy and have little background in IT, I just use iCloud for backup (I pay so have plenty of space). iCloud also helps prevent my HD filling up. Media wise I stream everything.

Am I missing something?

2017 13" MacBook Pro Touch Bar
GTX1060 + AKiTiO Thunder3 + Win10
GTX1070 + Sonnet Breakaway Box + Win10
GTX1070 + Razer Core V1 + Win10
Vega 56 + Razer Core V1 + macOS + Win10
Vega 56 + Mantiz Venus + macOS + W10

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LG 5K Ultrafine flickering issue fix


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