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List of Intel Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 Devices
 

List of Intel Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 Devices  

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joevt
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Dec 23, 2018 10:25 pm  
Posted by: dgsga

@joevt
Thanks very much for the tip,  I can query the current security level in Ubuntu with the command:
cat /sys/thunderbolt/devices/domain0/security
But I’m unable to write to the same location using echo as root user (permission denied). Am I missing something here?

Did you try "sudo"?

There is also the higher-level boltctl command line. It uses the boltd daemon.

There is also the older tbtadm. It uses different ACL which might conflict with bolt.
https://github.com/intel/thunderbolt-software-user-space/issues/60
https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Whiteboards/ThunderboltAccess

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dgsga
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Dec 24, 2018 2:21 pm  

I did try sudo to no effect. Unfortunately both boltctl and tbtadm appear to only allow you to change the approval status of the attached device, not the security level of the controller. It looks like that can only be done through firmware unfortunately.

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karatekid430
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Jan 1, 2019 4:28 am  

Here, try getting the return value.

echo <somevalue> | sudo tee /sys/bus/thunderbolt/devices/domain0/security

Then do the following straight afterwards to reveal the return value:

echo $?

0 would be success, anything else has a meaning that can be found in the Linux source code by somebody who knows a bit about kernel code like myself.

Edit: I am a massive idiot. I typed all of that out without checking the permissions on that sysfs entry. It is 444 which means it is read only with no kernel code to handle writing to it. It was not designed to be written to. Under /sys the filesystem is virtual, and reading and writing the entries triggers kernel-space code, and is not opening actual files. It is an illusion that makes Linux a lot more intuitive and usable. I attribute the ease of doing many things in Linux compared to Windows to this.

Here's the kernel code that is run when you query security:

Screenshot from 2019 01 01 12 35 28

There is no security_store function needed to write to the sysfs entry and it declares DEVICE_ATTR_RO (read only) permissions for the entry.

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karatekid430
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Jan 1, 2019 5:07 am  
Posted by: Rekka3000
Posted by: theitsage

@rekka3000 Thank you for the update on this motherboard. Which version of Intel Thunderbolt Software are you running?

Running 17.4.77.400.

Motherboard TB3 (Alpine Ridge) is running NVM Firmware 14.00
Gigabyte TitanRidge AIC was running NVM Firmware 23.00

I saw mention of the fact there are newer firmwares out there for these controllers, if the manufacturer doesn't provide newer firmwares, what's the easiest way to upgrade? Does anybody have any advice on getting the AIC working? Does my error seem likely to be fixed by the jumper pins being connected like Karatekid did?

Posted by: Rekka3000

I can confirm the AsRock Intel Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX/AC Motherboard does NOT work with the Titanridge AIC. (Or at least out of the box)

Put it in, turned off (and tried it turned on) thunderbolt 3 support in the bios. Windows detects Titanridge AIC and it detected the Sonnet Breakaway eGFX 650. Checked the about section and has all ports registered and lists as egpu are supported.  However, it didn't see the RTX 2080 I had plugged in. 

Checked device manager and there was a "PCI Express Upstream Switch Port" device that had an error 31. The device seems to be the Sonnet eGFX 650 that was plugged in as HW ID is that of the Alpine Ridge controller. Motherboard thunderbolt 3 was definitely disabled and HWInfo confirms it was disabled. Uninstalled drivers and reinstalled about 10x. No luck.

I imagine it's to do with the TB3 header and needing to connect the pins together to trick it to wake up, but I tried splicing the provided TB3 header cable (plugged in 1 end into the header on the card, removed the necessary cable from the other sides jack and connected the cable, but that didn't work. I'll try it with a proper wire to see if my splice/join had errors, but does anyone have any suggestions?

Now, that Z390 motherboard is likely to have upgraded firmware that supports Titan Ridge, but because it has Alpine Ridge on the same board, and because it is from a manufacturer with no Titan Ridge products, it might be muddied. I would *definitely* change the Thunderbolt support in BIOS to "fully disabled" or if that is not available, "disabled". I had issues when Alpine Ridge support is running with Titan Ridge with devices not enumerating. Are there options in BIOS like "Titan Ridge workaround for OSUP" or something about selecting OS support? I am sure they will be there, but they might be hidden - in which case you would need to boot into an EFI shell off a USB and set variables manually. If you are interested in this approach, I will extract the IFR for your motherboard from the BIOS update from Asrock and send it to you, which will reveal the offsets of all the options. Then you can go into the EFI shell and do setup_var <offset> <desired value> to change hidden options.

What you described definitely sounds like the BIOS interfering based on my experiences, but it might not hurt to check the NVM version of the Sonnet. In Linux, "cat /sys/bus/thunderbolt/devices/?-?/nvm_version" and to check you have the right device, "cat /sys/bus/thunderbolt/devices/?-?/device_name".

Without proper BIOS support enabled (assuming that the Thunderbolt BIOS interferes when set to "enabled", requiring it to be disabled), you will not be getting busses and resources reserved, meaning the devices will have to be pre-approved and then the computer rebooted to make them detected at boot time and reserved. I am working on a Linux patch to enable perfect Titan Ridge support without an inkling of BIOS support, and it is promising, but it will take more time to tidy up and try to submit it. On Linux, you can get some results by passing to kernel parameters "pci=realloc,assign-busses,hpbussize=0x33,hpmemsize=128M,nocrs" but the issue is that passing hpmemsize too high kills it. Because it tries to assign equal amounts of 32-bit address space and 64-bit address space, when it runs out of room for the desired amount in 32-bit, it all fails - even though you ideally only want a few MB of 32-bit, but as much 64-bit space as you can get. Most graphics will want 256MB, plus other little bits, plus enough to support the Thunderbolt stuff around it. For me, it fails if I try to exceed about 128MB without a kernel patch. A simple kernel patch allows me to hot-add devices at depth 1 perfectly, but if I try to chain them, I need to write a completely new handler for the Thunderbolt special case to make sure the allocation is done properly.

The Linux kernel tries to allocate everything perfectly - doing depth-last and allocating the memory required under the parent bridges. But with Thunderbolt and hot-adding devices, this does not work. It tries to allocate, but they will inevitably fail - as it will be requesting the same amount of space from the kernel resources as in the parent bridge, and some of that space will have been consumed by the PCI endpoints. What we want is a way of saying "the hotplug bridge corresponding to the physical host Thunderbolt ports will have this amount of resources attached, and each further device will take what it needs and put the rest of the free memory to its daisy chaining port, and if we run out of memory, then we are screwed and need to reboot and request more to be reserved, and we cannot do anything about it".

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karatekid430
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Jan 1, 2019 5:12 am  

Oh, I came here to say that the Winstars Thunderbolt 3 to dual DisplayPort 1.4 adapter that I mentioned a while ago is confirmed to be JHL7440 with USB-C fallback. I contacted the manufacturers. Their notes say it is not recommended to mention the USB-C fallback to avoid confusing consumers, or something to that effect. Here is the official page which does not say anything about all of this: https://thunderbolttechnology.net/product/thunderbolt%E2%84%A2-3-dual-displayport-8k-adapter

It's a little bit sad - so far, I only know of the HP G2 dock and this Winstars one with the JHL7440.

I would not recommend it because it still has the attached cable. There is one with removable cable, but not Titan Ridge. I am just going to wait for them to upgrade it to Titan Ridge.  https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=33387

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karatekid430
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Jan 1, 2019 5:17 am  

Oh, and here's some evidence that Thunderbolt open-sourcing is still happening (they are running late, expect in 1H/2019).

https://www.cnet.com/news/how-macbook-air-showcases-the-battle-between-usb-c-and-thunderbolt/

I assumed that because they had not taken the notice down with their original plans of open-sourcing that they were still planning on doing it. But this is a lot more reassuring. I wonder if this has something to do with the 16 new PCI IDs for unknown Thunderbolt controllers in the Thunderbolt UWD driver.

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Rekka3000
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Jan 1, 2019 9:49 am  

Hey!

Cheers for the support, as I mentioned in a newer post, I got it working by doing the pre-approval + reboot method. My motherboard does indeed have "Titan Ridge workaround for OSUP" and a lot of other options. If there's anything I can do to somehow get it working, let me know.

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karatekid430
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Jan 2, 2019 1:41 am  
Posted by: Rekka3000

Hey!

Cheers for the support, as I mentioned in a newer post, I got it working by doing the pre-approval + reboot method. My motherboard does indeed have "Titan Ridge workaround for OSUP" and a lot of other options. If there's anything I can do to somehow get it working, let me know.

 

Sorry, I tried to read some backposts but I probably skim read too quickly and missed things.

Okay, so experiment with those options. If Thunderbolt support must be enabled, then definitely enable anything that mentions Titan Ridge. I do not own any motherboard with the newer Thunderbolt BIOS modules inside (but have analysed them by extracting their BIOSes). I just have a couple of Titan Ridge AICs and an Alpine Ridge era motherboard.

You are never going to get official full support - as your motherboard does not have the GPIO which is officially still required (even though we have shown it does little to nothing at all, and nothing critical). The only chance you have is the fact that it is the newer generation loaded with the BIOS that knows about Titan Ridge, even though the motherboard was never meant to use it. Worst case, you use Titan Ridge with the BIOS support disabled, like the people who showed it working on AMD systems did. Hotplug will not work without OS or DSDT patches, but at least you will have something.

Care to elaborate on your workloads? If you are just attaching external graphics then it is probably not a big deal. If you are hot-adding a NVMe SSD constantly then it might be a pain. Although if you boot with something attached and it works in the first place, you should be able to yank it out and hot-add it to that same port thereafter, as the required resources will still be present after being reserved at boot time. Although it is not the best solution in the long run, the easiest solution would be for the add-in card to present as a device that appears as though all 6 devices on each port are attached while the OS boots, to get it to reserve the bus numbers and bridge resources. Intel would have to do that in firmware. But as I said, in the long run it will just make things worse - for example, if you want to boot off a Thunderbolt device, or request for more resources to be reserved for large BAR graphics cards.

Basically, if you experiment with all of the options with Thunderbolt support enabled in BIOS, and it does not work at all, you will have to disable Thunderbolt support in BIOS and just work with it without hotplug and attaching at boot time. A nuisance and not ideal, but it will not actually stop you from doing anything. The ideal thing will be to keep the Alpine Ridge port on the motherboard. Although it uses a crap controller (PCIe 3.0 x2 only), it would be nice to have. If you can get the Thunderbolt enabled in BIOS for the inbuilt port without it interfering with the Titan Ridge (even if hotplug on Titan Ridge is broken) then at least you can attach three devices at once. There might be options about AIC support in BIOS. See if disabling AIC support and enabling OSUP workaround, or some combination of the options, helps.

Please post a photo of your screen on the Thunderbolt options in BIOS so I can make some suggestions. I can see what options are available in BIOS by looking in the ROM from Asrock's website, but I cannot tell which ones it exposes in the GUI and which are hidden.

On a side note, if Intel does release Thunderbolt in 1H/2019 as open-spec and actually releases control over it (public domain or grants permission for unencumbered use) then support might come back for Titan Ridge add-in cards. If it requires the motherboard vendors to make a BIOS update, then it is less likely, as they already have your money. However, Microsoft might make changes to the ntoskrnl to handle Titan Ridge on its own (as I am trying to do for Linux).

Best of luck!

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karatekid430
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Jan 9, 2019 7:51 am  

Hello,

The new Dell 9380 may or may not be Titan Ridge.

https://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/19/drivers/driversdetails?driverId=C25P2&osCode=WT64A&productCode=xps-13-9380-laptop

You can run this NVM update utility on the Dell 9370 (and maybe any computer) and type the BIOS password if you have one and it will extract to %temp%/Dell directory.

The package contains a lot of firmwares for a lot of laptops with different controllers. But if you do

grep -r -a --byte-offset --only-matching $'\x86\x80\xeb\x15'

You get hits on a few of the files. For some reason, the byte offset of the controller in Titan Ridge firmwares is 512 higher than the Alpine Ridge ones (19472 vs 19984 or 0x4c10 vs 0x4e10).

But these are NVM35 (offset 20104 for Titan Ridge). The offset of NVM version is 19528 on Alpine Ridge firmwares. The ones with NVM40 are Alpine Ridge.

That means it is highly likely that *something* from Dell has or will have Titan Ridge (unless they just bundled all the firmwares from Intel into the package carelessly).

Anybody else care to do some sleuthing? My problem is determining which firmware in the package is for the Dell 9380.

Cheers!

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karatekid430
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Jan 9, 2019 9:17 am  

Wow, this is something which I knew possible for a long time but I never thought I would see.

I installed a NVM40 for 15d2 controller on my Dell 9370. It has not bricked the controller. But it has stopped it enumerating PCI.

Then I realised, HOLY CRAP I KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS. I went into WMI Explorer and I was 100% correct.

It has finally enabled OsNativePciEnumeration on Alpine Ridge. Not only that, but the RTD3 flag is also set, which is more than could be said for the Gigabyte GC-TITAN RIDGE in my unsupported setups.

I knew this has been possible because I talked to Mika Westerberg of Intel who is largely responsible for most of the Thunderbolt drivers, at least in Linux. He said months ago that it is possible with Alpine Ridge but it requires more work than Titan Ridge on the vendor's part, but less than Alpine Ridge without OsNativePciEnumeration.

Now I am going to see what other possibilities this has opened up. Ideally, it will make an Alpine Ridge detectable in any system (will need to eliminate the need for additional firmware to be flashed to the chipset every boot). But if I can get this working, then I will have a system with many of the benefits of Titan Ridge (minus DP1.4 support).

This means that if the Dell 9380 has NVM40 like the package name under its downloads section, then it is Alpine Ridge (*sobs*). But, it does seem to suggest that they have finally done some meaningful work on Alpine Ridge....

Edit: Disabled Thunderbolt support in Dell 9370 BIOS and can still see the Thunderbolt NHI. This is promising! Next I will try to flash the ROM onto my Alpine Ridge add-in cards with the 15d2 controller and see if it works the same magic there. Unfortunately, the Dell 9370 has not yet successfully enumerated the PCI for a device, though - I will look into it.

Edit2: Soldered wires onto an engineering sample MSI Thunderbolt M3 AIC (8086:15d2), backed up the ROM contents, went into Linux, flashed NVM40 to it. Hard brick, no power delivery or nothing. Restored ROM contents with programmer. I think I need to figure out how to separate the USB-C port firmware and power delivery from the MSI firmware and splice that region into the NVM40 from Dell to make it work.

As for my Dell laptop, it sorta works with Thunderbolt 3 support disabled in BIOS. I have not gotten around to editing EFI variables in EFI shell with extracted IFR information yet. But the Thunderbolt controller is always visible, now, even when no devices are attached. Strangely enough, the BIOS still reserves bus numbers and PCI root port resources with Thunderbolt disabled. Strangely enough, Windows actually does a better job of using those than Linux - which stuffs it up after the first bus. Linux is reporting the OSI handover for controlling PCIe Hotplug as failed. Usually this passes when the Thunderbolt has been disabled in BIOS - which makes me wonder if it is getting properly shut down.

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karatekid430
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Jan 14, 2019 1:24 am  
Posted by: Duc Phuc Tran

The new ThinkPad Thunderbolt 3 Dock Gen 2 uses Titan Ridge.  Their support page spells out supported video resolutions when using TB3 vs USB-C on DP 1.2 including saying it can support DP1.4 resolutions.  I just received mine to use with a ThinkPad X1 Yoga (3rd Gen).

Support Page:  https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/PD500265
Display and Video Output Configurations - Docking Stations: https://support.lenovo.com/solutions/pd029622

The dock doesn't work with my Mac Pro Late 2013 using the Apple TB3 to TB2 Adapter. Nothing happens when I connect it to my Mac. No enumeration is happening. When cold starting with it connected, the Mac turns on but nothing happens. It required a hard shutdown. Should the dock work with my mac?

It depends if it is Mac certified. It should enumerate but MacOS might not have drivers for the particular PCIe endpoints in the dock. Can you post output of "ioreg -b" command in an attachment text file? At least I think it is that command. Edit: just to clarify, with the Titan Ridge dock attached, if that was not implied clearly.

Also, do other Thunderbolt 3 self-powered devices work with that adapter?

Thunderbolt controllers need a certain level of NVM firmware to work with the Thunderbolt 2 adapter. I do not know if Apple controllers are updatable, or if Apple does it automatically behind the scenes.

I must say it is strange of you to buy a Titan Ridge dock and then use it with Thunderbolt 2, which does not have enough bandwidth for any of the benefits. Unless you are planning on upgrading the laptop in the foreseeable future. It is good to plan for the future, so in that case, excellent decision.

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AlexD
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Jan 19, 2019 1:03 pm  

Hello everyone! I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience connecting Apple Thunderbolt Display to PC with Titan Ridge JHL7540 Thunderbolt chip (either onboard or as an add-in TB card)?

I've recently finished my PC build based on latest Gigabyte's Z390 Designare. It features an onboard JHL7540 Titan Ridge controller and two built-in Thunderbolt 3 ports, as well as DP Input to route the discrete video card's DP output to motherboard TB controller.

Unfortunately, I hadn't figured out the way to connect my Apple Thunderbolt Display via standard Apple TB3 to TB2 adapter. Display simply stays black and won't turn on. Never.

Tried various BIOS TB settings, tried latest Windows 10, latest Ubuntu and even latest macOS 10.14.2. Display never shows up and never turns on.

I heard that Apple Thunderbolt Display worked fine with Alpine Ridge, so there might be some incompatibility issues with Titan Ridge and this particular display maybe?

I already talked to Intel Thunderbolt team engineers and they confirmed, that JHL7540 should work fine with previous gen devices. But Gigabyte engineers said to me, that Titan Ridge chip operates only in native mode and doesn't support any older devices (TB1/2) that may require legacy mode. They said it's a hardware limitation and can't be adjusted by BIOS or whatever. 

So my question is: is it true? Please let me know your thoughts on it. Are there really any reports of some devices stopped working with Titan Ridge while they were working fine with previous gens of TB controllers?

My thought was that Titan Ridge may properly switch its operating mode depending on the device being plugged in. And my second thought was that Titan Ridge as a next, more powerful version of Alpine Ridge should do and should support everything that Alpine Ridge could, and provide even more.

Just trying to figure out the way to connect my lovely Apple display to my new PC build. Thank you in advance for any thoughts or feedback.

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joevt
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Jan 19, 2019 2:39 pm  
Posted by: AlexD

Hello everyone! I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience connecting Apple Thunderbolt Display to PC with Titan Ridge JHL7540 Thunderbolt chip (either onboard or as an add-in TB card)?

I've recently finished my PC build based on latest Gigabyte's Z390 Designare. It features an onboard JHL7540 Titan Ridge controller and two built-in Thunderbolt 3 ports, as well as DP Input to route the discrete video card's DP output to motherboard TB controller.

Unfortunately, I hadn't figured out the way to connect my Apple Thunderbolt Display via standard Apple TB3 to TB2 adapter. Display simply stays black and won't turn on. Never.

Tried various BIOS TB settings, tried latest Windows 10, latest Ubuntu and even latest macOS 10.14.2. Display never shows up and never turns on.

I heard that Apple Thunderbolt Display worked fine with Alpine Ridge, so there might be some incompatibility issues with Titan Ridge and this particular display maybe?

I already talked to Intel Thunderbolt team engineers and they confirmed, that JHL7540 should work fine with previous gen devices. But Gigabyte engineers said to me, that Titan Ridge chip operates only in native mode and doesn't support any older devices (TB1/2) that may require legacy mode. They said it's a hardware limitation and can't be adjusted by BIOS or whatever. 

So my question is: is it true? Please let me know your thoughts on it. Are there really any reports of some devices stopped working with Titan Ridge while they were working fine with previous gens of TB controllers?

My thought was that Titan Ridge may properly switch its operating mode depending on the device being plugged in. And my second thought was that Titan Ridge as a next, more powerful version of Alpine Ridge should do and should support everything that Alpine Ridge could, and provide even more.

Just trying to figure out the way to connect my lovely Apple display to my new PC build. Thank you in advance for any thoughts or feedback.

I think those Gigabyte engineers are full of crap.

I've successfully connected Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 1 devices to the Titan Ridge ports of a Mac Mini 2018. I've tried a display via a Thunderbolt 2 dock. I've done the same with a GC-TITAN RIDGE card. I have not tried an Apple Thunderbolt Display.

Did you try using both Thunderbolt 3 ports of the motherboard?

Does the Intel Thunderbolt software ask you to authorize the Apple Thunderbolt Display?

Do the devices (USB 2.0 controller, FireWire OHCI controller, Gigabit Ethernet controller) of the Apple Thunderbolt Display appear in Device Manager?

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AlexD
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Jan 19, 2019 3:08 pm  
Posted by: joevt
Posted by: AlexD

Hello everyone! I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience connecting Apple Thunderbolt Display to PC with Titan Ridge JHL7540 Thunderbolt chip (either onboard or as an add-in TB card)?

I've recently finished my PC build based on latest Gigabyte's Z390 Designare. It features an onboard JHL7540 Titan Ridge controller and two built-in Thunderbolt 3 ports, as well as DP Input to route the discrete video card's DP output to motherboard TB controller.

Unfortunately, I hadn't figured out the way to connect my Apple Thunderbolt Display via standard Apple TB3 to TB2 adapter. Display simply stays black and won't turn on. Never.

Tried various BIOS TB settings, tried latest Windows 10, latest Ubuntu and even latest macOS 10.14.2. Display never shows up and never turns on.

I heard that Apple Thunderbolt Display worked fine with Alpine Ridge, so there might be some incompatibility issues with Titan Ridge and this particular display maybe?

I already talked to Intel Thunderbolt team engineers and they confirmed, that JHL7540 should work fine with previous gen devices. But Gigabyte engineers said to me, that Titan Ridge chip operates only in native mode and doesn't support any older devices (TB1/2) that may require legacy mode. They said it's a hardware limitation and can't be adjusted by BIOS or whatever. 

So my question is: is it true? Please let me know your thoughts on it. Are there really any reports of some devices stopped working with Titan Ridge while they were working fine with previous gens of TB controllers?

My thought was that Titan Ridge may properly switch its operating mode depending on the device being plugged in. And my second thought was that Titan Ridge as a next, more powerful version of Alpine Ridge should do and should support everything that Alpine Ridge could, and provide even more.

Just trying to figure out the way to connect my lovely Apple display to my new PC build. Thank you in advance for any thoughts or feedback.

I think those Gigabyte engineers are full of crap.

I've successfully connected Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 1 devices to the Titan Ridge ports of a Mac Mini 2018. I've tried a display via a Thunderbolt 2 dock. I've done the same with a GC-TITAN RIDGE card. I have not tried an Apple Thunderbolt Display.

Did you try using both Thunderbolt 3 ports of the motherboard?

Does the Intel Thunderbolt software ask you to authorize the Apple Thunderbolt Display?

Do the devices (USB 2.0 controller, FireWire OHCI controller, Gigabit Ethernet controller) of the Apple Thunderbolt Display appear in Device Manager?

Thank you very much for your response @joevt !
I fully agree with you and I believe that they did something really wrong with Titan Ridge on PCH implementation in their Z390 Designare. It may be improper/incomplete BIOS support for this TB controller, bugs in firmware (in conversation with Intel Thunderbolt team I was told that currently the control over firmware modifications is up to vendors) or something else.

Seems like there are problems with proper TB devices enumeration/initialization which prevent the display from being recognized. I had a very long conversation with Gigabyte USA recently, but in the end I felt like I'm talking to walls. They refuse to confirm the issue and just keep telling me that it's Titan Ridge's hardware limitation. 

Yes, of course, I tried both TB 3.0 ports on the motherboard.

None of them recognizes Apple Thunderbolt Display. None of the internals of the display (usb, camera, sound, ethernet, firewire) appear in Windows.

Thunderbolt Software just shows me two empty ports all the time without any devices listed below. No notifications, alerts or connect attempts at all.

I'm running latest 17.4.77.400 driver and NVM version is 33 (Thunderbolt package was downloaded from Gigabyte official website). Just in case you might be interested: I tried vaious security settings (from Disabled/Legacy to User Authorization and Secure Connect). No luck, even at legacy mode. Which is absolutely strange for me. I believed, the older TB1/2 devices should be working well when no authorization is required (legacy mode).

In Ubuntu, the OS itself recognizes the controller (Titan Ridge) but there are no connected devices recognized as well.

Same for macOS 10.14.2. Apple Thunderbolt Display stays black all the time and never turns on.

USB-C flash drive is working perfectly if plugged into any of those ports, btw.

On another forum there's a thread about Z390 Designare and people posting that they had success connecting various audio TB devices (UAD mostly). Someone posted that even his LG Ultrafine 5K is working perfectly in macOS. It is TB3 display and for some reason Titan Ridge seems to support it without any issues. Other USB-C (DisplayPort, not true TB) monitors are also supported if connected to any of those two ports on the back of the motherboard.

So it seems like the issue is ONLY with true Thunderbolt monitors of previous generations (TB1/2).

I'm still wondering: why Apple Thunderbolt Display isn't supported by Titan Ridge JHL7540. I had really big hopes for this motherboard and its Thunderbolt capabilites.
Just don't want to believe that with Titan Ridge introduction they are trying to force people to buy the only most recent TB3 hardware.

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joevt
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Jan 21, 2019 12:13 am  

I couldn't find a post where someone has the Apple Thunderbolt Display working with a Titan Ridge host.

Do you have Security mode set to None in BIOS?

If you want to try a Thunderbolt 1 device, the cheapest is either the Apple Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter or the Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter.

If the Thunderbolt display doesn't work with the built-in Thunderbolt controller, then maybe it will work with an add-in card such as the GC-ALPINE RIDGE. I think the GC-TITAN RIDGE might have the same problem as your built-in Titan Ridge.

You could try a different Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter than the Apple version.

You could try connecting the Apple Thunderbolt Display to a Thunderbolt 3 Dock (uses Alpine Ridge) or a Thunderbolt 2 Dock.

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AlexD
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Jan 21, 2019 11:10 am  

I also couldn't find someone who had success with connecting Apple Thunderbolt Display to Titan Ridge (built-in or as an add-in card).

As there's no "None" setting for Security Mode, the weakest one is "Legacy" which I suppose to be the same (if Gigabyte did everything correct here, of course).
Yes, just checked the BIOS settings: Security Mode is set to "No Security".

I also tend to believe that it may be worth trying GC-ALPINE RIDGE add-in card, as GC-TITAN RIDGE might have the same problems as my built-in JHL7540 controller.

On one of the forums someone replied to me that after he returned GC-TITAN RIDGE card and bought GC-ALPINE RIDGE instead, he was finally able to connect Apple Thunderbolt Display to it. But he used Z390 Aorus Pro, which has THB_C header on the motherboard, while Z390 Designare doesn't (because it's already has Thunderbolt built-in I suppose).

I'm wondering if GC-ALPINE RIDGE will be working, if plugged without THB_C cable connected to the motherboard. I know that GC-TITAN RIDGE works fine without THB_C cable connected, at least in macOS. Not sure about GC-ALPINE RIDGE though.

And another way is using dock between devices, you're absolutely right @joevt

I'm also thinking about purchasing another TB3/TB2 adapter, from Akitio, Startech or Cable Matters.

Some people reported they had better luck connecting devices with those, because Apple's adapter simply didn't work at all in their configuration.

Thank you very much for your valuable thoughts. Very appreciate your time.

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karatekid430
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Jan 27, 2019 6:49 am  
Posted by: AlexD

I also couldn't find someone who had success with connecting Apple Thunderbolt Display to Titan Ridge (built-in or as an add-in card).

As there's no "None" setting for Security Mode, the weakest one is "Legacy" which I suppose to be the same (if Gigabyte did everything correct here, of course).
Yes, just checked the BIOS settings: Security Mode is set to "No Security".

I also tend to believe that it may be worth trying GC-ALPINE RIDGE add-in card, as GC-TITAN RIDGE might have the same problems as my built-in JHL7540 controller.

On one of the forums someone replied to me that after he returned GC-TITAN RIDGE card and bought GC-ALPINE RIDGE instead, he was finally able to connect Apple Thunderbolt Display to it. But he used Z390 Aorus Pro, which has THB_C header on the motherboard, while Z390 Designare doesn't (because it's already has Thunderbolt built-in I suppose).

I'm wondering if GC-ALPINE RIDGE will be working, if plugged without THB_C cable connected to the motherboard. I know that GC-TITAN RIDGE works fine without THB_C cable connected, at least in macOS. Not sure about GC-ALPINE RIDGE though.

And another way is using dock between devices, you're absolutely right @joevt

I'm also thinking about purchasing another TB3/TB2 adapter, from Akitio, Startech or Cable Matters.

Some people reported they had better luck connecting devices with those, because Apple's adapter simply didn't work at all in their configuration.

Thank you very much for your valuable thoughts. Very appreciate your time.

Alpine Ridge only works on supported motherboards (all of which have the Thunderbolt GPIO header). It is not the GPIO header that makes them work - it is just that all of the motherboards with the BIOS modules to initialise the Alpine Ridge are required to have the header. Alpine Ridge requires some sort of extra firmware flashed at boot time by the motherboard, which is forgotten when it is powered down. Titan Ridge has no such requirement (it has everything it needs in persistent memory on the card), hence why it is detectable in any motherboard.

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karatekid430
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Jan 27, 2019 6:55 am  
Posted by: Duc Phuc Tran

Thanks for the reply. I should have been clearer that I was asking in a more general sense if the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter is expected to work with peripherals using a Titan Ridge JHL7440 with USB-C computer port compatibility enabled. I believe it is supposed to work but does not when I tried. I didn’t want to waste time trying if others have attempted with the same outcome. The Titan Ridge controllers are a compatible extension of the Alpine Ridge controllers, so it is supposed to work.

I don’t think it is a matter of certification since many devices work without being certified. Nor is it strange. The two major Titan Ridge features are DP 1.4 and USB-C computer port compatibility which provide for single-cable monitors and enterprise docks. You buy a single Titan Ridge dock so you can use it with various host systems including those with much lower bandwidth than TB3. A quote from an Intel product announcement:

Enterprise dock makers can deploy a single Thunderbolt 3 dock for thousands of employees to streamline hardware installations and accelerate the speed of IT delivery.

I would say it is common to obtain TB3 peripherals to use with TB2 hosts especially on this site since the External GPU Buyer’s Guide says:

Note: better value Thunderbolt 3 enclosures work with TB2/TB1 Macs in macOS and with PC notebooks via a US$49 Apple TB3 to TB2 adapter.

I actually bought the dock for a ThinkPad X1 Yoga (3rd Gen) which is a business class laptop. The dock does not enumerate so there is nothing of significance in the output of ioreg.

With the JHL7440, if you mean doing the following, then absolutely not:

Computer (plain USB-C) -> JHL7440 dock -> Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter -> Thunderbolt device

The plain USB-C mode is transmitting USB and DisplayPort signals. There is no PCIe support. The only way to get PCIe from USB is using the JMS583 chip from Jmicron which does UASP to NVMe conversion (but will not work with any other type of PCIe device, even PCIe AHCI SSDs).

If you mean JHL7440 dock from a Thunderbolt 2 computer, yeah, it should work. The main things that do not work with Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapters are:

- Plain mini DisplayPort displays (only works for Thunderbolt displays)
- Bus powered Thunderbolt 3 devices (cannot pass enough power so have to go to a powered Thunderbolt 3 dock first, then to the bus-powered device) 

It's been a while. I cannot remember what I said. But it is certainly weird. If the NVM firmwares are up to date and you have tested each part independently to be working, then I have absolutely no clue.

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joevt
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Jan 27, 2019 3:22 pm  
Posted by: Duc Phuc Tran

The new ThinkPad Thunderbolt 3 Dock Gen 2 uses Titan Ridge.  Their support page spells out supported video resolutions when using TB3 vs USB-C on DP 1.2 including saying it can support DP1.4 resolutions.  I just received mine to use with a ThinkPad X1 Yoga (3rd Gen).

Support Page:  https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/PD500265
Display and Video Output Configurations - Docking Stations: https://support.lenovo.com/solutions/pd029622

It says 3 displays can be connected to the Thinkpad dock. If Thunderbolt gets only two DisplayPort signals, then it must be using MST? MST isn't supported by macOS. Have you tried connecting more than two displays in macOS and Windows? From the table, it appears that a single DisplayPort signal is shared with the DP1, DP2/HDMI 2, and HDMI 1 ports using a built-in 3 port MST hub. There is no indication that the MST Hub supports DisplayPort 1.4. The second DisplayPort signal is obtained from the downstream Thunderbolt port.

The HP Thunderbolt Dock G2 can support 4 displays. It probably has an MST hub too but I haven't thought about how it might be connected. The tables for that device indicates a DisplayPort 1.4 MST hub.

Actually, the 3 display limit of the ThinkPad dock might be a limitation of Intel graphics used by the laptop. A computer using AMD or Nvidia graphics should be able to support 4 displays: 3 from the MST hub and another from the Thunderbolt port. With AMD graphics, you could connect an MST hub to the Thunderbolt port to add 3 more displays, 6 total. There are many DisplayPort 1.2 MST hubs. I don't know of any DisplayPort 1.4 MST hubs.

Posted by: Duc Phuc Tran

There was a firmware update for the ThinkPad dock.  It now works with my Mac Pro Late 2013 using the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter when hot plugged running macOS.  It does not work from boot. It still hangs my Mac.

I wonder if it would behave better if there was a Thunderbolt 3 device between the Apple adapter and the Thinkpad dock.

Posted by: Duc Phuc Tran

The Intel Titan Ridge Thunderbolt xHCI embedded USB 3.1 Gen 2 host controller uses the AppleUSBXHCITR driver and the speed is 10 Gb/sec. I did a quick test with a Samsung T5 using USB-C. It was reported using 10 Gb/s and achieved ~500 MB/s. It was only ~360 MB/s using USB 3.1 Gen 1 in a previous test on the internal controller.

I was able to get 787 MB/s write, 912 MB/s reads, from a USB 3.1 gen 2 device (hardware RAID of two 2.5 inch SSDs) connected to a GC-TITAN RIDGE card in my Mac Pro 2008. 912 MB/s is better than you can get from a ASM1142 based USB 3.1 gen 2 card (which are limited by PCIe 2.0 x2). I should test a Thunderbolt 3 dock connected to a Thunderbolt 2 MacBook Pro.

Posted by: karatekid430

The main things that do not work with Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapters are:

- Plain mini DisplayPort displays (only works for Thunderbolt displays)

The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter does not contain a Thunderbolt controller. A Thunderbolt controller is required to convert the DisplayPort stream in the Thunderbolt signal back to DisplayPort. That's what a Thunderbolt display does. Any Thunderbolt device with a DisplayPort output or second Thunderbolt port can do that. But if you just want to connect a DisplayPort display, then a USB-C to DisplayPort cable is much cheaper than a Thunderbolt device.

Posted by: karatekid430

- Bus powered Thunderbolt 3 devices (cannot pass enough power so have to go to a powered Thunderbolt 3 dock first, then to the bus-powered device) 

The Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter has enough power for bus powered Thunderbolt 1 or 2 devices like the Apple Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet adapter or the Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire adapter.

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vsn
 vsn
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Feb 4, 2019 10:13 am  

I just received a GC-Titan Ridge card but I can't find a link to download the drivers, could anyone tell where can I download it please? In the official product page I can only find the manual :/ https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GC-TITAN-RIDGE-rev-10#support-manual

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karatekid430
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Mar 1, 2019 11:31 am  
Posted by: vsn

I just received a GC-Titan Ridge card but I can't find a link to download the drivers, could anyone tell where can I download it please? In the official product page I can only find the manual :/ https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GC-TITAN-RIDGE-rev-10#support-manual

Don't bother with manufacturer, most are horribly out of date.

https://necacom.net/index.php/intel/thunderbolt

If installing 1.X drivers (new style with Windows 10 store app) then have to right click all .inf files in package before it will allow you to download the Thunderbolt store app without it failing with a strange error code. The old-style ones with standard exe software are 17.X.

 

List of Dell Titan Ridge:

Precision 7530, 7730, 7540, 7740 (All with 8086:15eb controller).

Dell website missing Dell 7540 and 7740 product pages, getting sick of them just omitting stuff willy nilly.

 

Edit: For Dell 9370, I got 1.8.1 BIOS update today after they pulled the 1.7.3 a while ago from their website (again, FFS, stop removing stuff Dell). Still has not enabled native PCI enumeration. All of the Dell 9380, 9575, 9570 have it.... Still, I have native enumeration because I flashed the NVM40 from Dell 9380, but because the BIOS is behind, it is a little glitchy.

Update on kernel patches: my three or so Linux patches are yet to be accepted because PCI maintainer busy / behind. But if they eventually get accepted, then it will allow for perfect support of GC-TITAN RIDGE without any BIOS support. I have been using it for quite a while and I have not had a single hiccup whatsoever. I cannot make it break. Rock stable.

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karatekid430
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Mar 3, 2019 9:56 am  

It is worth noting that I dumped the Thunderbolt NVM firmware and it is full of i386 instructions. Same with the Intel X550-T2 NIC. They seem to be tiny cut down x86 CPUs, which means that the scope of what one can achieve if one can figure out how to modify the firmware is enormous. Two things that come to mind are fast PCILeech devices and dual DP 1.4 video capture cards. You could also turn a network (or ideally, Infiniband) card into a PCIe bridge.

The problem is I do not have the skills to do this. Anybody know somebody who has these skills?

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Mar 10, 2019 2:45 am  
Posted by: Rekka3000

 

TLDR: Asrock z390 phantom gaming-itx/ac: Works with Titanridge AIC if you do the TB header mod and turn off on-board TB in the bios. If you're looking for a mini-itx build, I think this is a pretty good little motherboard.

Finally got it working! I bought some breadboard wires and jumped the pins Karatekid mentioned, then put it in the PC.

booted the system, waited for everything to resolve itself, gave it permission to connect and then rebooted the PC.

Now detecting the 2080 and I can confirm it’s working correctly.

Hot plugging seems to work too, I can disconnect / reconnect the GPU at will. Works fine. Connecting and disconnecting the GPU seems to mess with the WiFi though as it will disconnect from my access point whenever I mess with the GPU.

Not entirely sure if I’ll stick with thunderbolt or just stick the 2080 in the PC, as I had it in there for a while and it was really nice just having it in the case but it is nice to know this works too.

@rekka3000 Hi i'm planning a similar build,
except probably i'm gonna use mini rtx 2060
care to elaborate more on this? From what i understand
1. Turn off on-board TB through BIOS
2. Use breadwired board to jump the pins > which pins?

Nevermind, found the post about jumping the pins

So i guess this means the onboard TB actually interrupt the GC titan ridge?
If it's true there are actually other 4 mini itx z390 boards without onboard TB3,
and i'm thinking of getting them instead

ASRock Motherboard Z390M-ITX/AC

Asus ROG Strix Z390-I Gaming

Gigabyte Z390 I Aorus Pro WiFi

MSI Z390 MPG Z390I Gaming Edge AC

Also do you notice any significant performance difference compared to desktop setup?

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joevt
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May 5, 2019 4:00 am  

I purchased an HP Thunderbolt Dock G2 for a couple reasons:

  1. To see how it works in USB mode (connected to a USB port) and Thunderbolt mode (connected to a Thunderbolt port).
  2. To see if Windows can drive a dual cable DisplayPort 1.2 SST display (the Dell UP2715K) using a single DisplayPort 1.4 cable and a DisplayPort 1.4 MST Hub.

The Dock contains no PCIe devices except the Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 controller. It has a four port USB 3.1 gen 2 hub (with fifth port USB 2.0 Billboard device) connected to the USB controller of the Thunderbolt 3 controller. There is also a 7 port USB 3.0 hub connected to the four port hub.

The Dock can be connected to a computer via Thunderbolt or USB.

 
USB Mode:
  • USB2.0/3.1 Hub (USB 2.0/USB 3.1 gen 2) (VIA Labs, Inc.):
    • 1 + USB-C SS+ (Front)
    • 2 + USB-A SS+ (Side)
    • 3 - USB5807 Hub (USB 2.0/USB 3.0) (Microchip)
      • 1 + USB-A SS (Left)
      • 2 + USB-A SS (Right)
      • 3 - (Internal) USB 10/100/1000 LAN (USB 3.0) (Realtek) (only appears in Thunderbolt mode)
      • 4 + Thunderbolt 3 (Rear) (USB 2.0) (only appears in USB mode)
      • 5 - (Internal) USB Audio (USB 2.0) (Generic) (Composite Device: {0: HP Thunderbolt Dock Audio Headset (two USB Audio Engines); 1: USB Audio Stream (first stream); 2: Headsets (second stream); 3: HID Device})
      • 6
      • 7 - (Internal) WinUSB (USB 2.0) (Cypress Semiconductor) (Composite Device: {0: ? 1: HID Device})
    • 4 + USB-C SS+/DP (Rear)
    • 5 - (Internal) USB Billboard Device (USB 2.0) (VIA Labs, Inc.)
The dock gets one 2-lane DisplayPort 1.4 input from USB-C DisplayPort alt mode input.
I was unable to get four lanes using a Moshi bi-directional USB-C to DisplayPort 1.4 cable - nothing would appear.
 
Thunderbolt Mode:
  • Intel Corporation JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 [Titan Ridge DD 2018]
    • 0 - 8086:15ef (bridge upstream)
      • 2 - pci8086:15ef (bridge downstream)
        • 0 - pcie8086,15ec (endpoint) (USB Controller [Titan Ridge 4C 2018])
          • 1,3 - (USB 2.0/3.1 gen 2) (see USB2.0/3.1 Hub above)
          • 2,4 - (USB 2.0/3.1 gen 2) Thunderbolt 3 (Rear)
      • 4 - pci8086:15ef (bridge downstream) (for chained Thunderbolt devices)
The dock gets two 4-lane DisplayPort 1.4 inputs from Thunderbolt 3 input.
One DisplayPort input can go to the MST hub, and the other DisplayPort input can go to the Thunderbolt 3 port, or both DisplayPort inputs can go to the Thunderbolt 3 port.
 
DisplayPort 1.4 MST Hub in the Dock has 3 outputs:
  1. DisplayPort 1
  2. DisplayPort 2
  3. USB-C SS+/DP (or VGA if VGA is connected; cannot use both simultaneously)
 
USB Mode: DisplayPort alt mode (Using a PC with Titan X (Maxwell)):
  1. Using a Sunix UPD2018, MacOS High Sierra has no problem, allowing 4K 30Hz as expected (since the Maxwell card does not support DisplayPort 1.4).
  2. Windows could detect the display but would only display black when I tried to enable it until I disconnected the display. Or it sometimes hanged.
  3. Ubuntu couldn't detect the display.
  4. I know the Sunix is working because Ubuntu, Windows, and MacOS can use the display when it is connected using a USB-C to DisplayPort adapter from the USB-C port of the Sunix. Therefore, the problem must be with the MST Hub or the MST Hub is exposing a bug with the combination of graphics card and driver.
 
USB Mode: DisplayPort alt mode (Using a MacBook Pro 2015 with AMD Radeon R9 M370X):
  1. Using a Sunix UPD2018, MacOS Mojave on a MacBook Pro 2015 experiences a pause when a display is connected to the Dock which is connected to the Sunix until the display is disconnected. The display is also unusable in Windows and Ubuntu.
 
USB Mode: DisplayPort alt mode (Using a PC with GTX 1070 (Pascal)):
  1. I was able to get 4K 30Hz using a Sunix UPD2018 as source. The Sunix does not support DisplayPort 1.4. See future test #3 below for more info.
 
Thunderbolt Mode: Dell UP2715K tests (Using a PC with Titan X (Maxwell)):
  1. Connecting one cable to the MST hub works at 4K.
  2. Connecting both cables to MST hub causes Windows to crash.
  3. Connecting both cables to MST hub causes MacOS to display the same 2560x2880 image for both halves of the display (because MacOS doesn't support MST). Disconnecting the second cable stretches the 2560x2880 image horizontally to fit the entire screen. Connecting the second cable to the Thunderbolt 3 port gives a 1440p resolution. To get 5K, a restart is required to clear things up.
 
Thunderbolt Mode: Dell UP2715K tests (Using a PC with GTX 1070 (Pascal)):
  1. Connecting both cables to the MST hub works and gives a 5K resolution! Color depth is limited to 8bpc though as expected since DisplayPort 1.4 only has 50% more bandwidth than DisplayPort 1.2. Dual cable DisplayPort 1.2 has 33% more bandwidth than DisplayPort 1.4.
  2. Connecting one cable to the MST hub and the other cable to the Thunderbolt port allows a color depth of 10bpc.
  3. Connecting 4K to the Thunderbolt port with the 5K connected to the MST hub (dual cable) works, but the 4K is limited to YCbCr422. This seems to indicate that the Thunderbolt controller is telling the graphics driver through the DisplayPort connection that RGB or 444 is not possible. I believe this is the best way to connect a 5K and 4K to a single Thunderbolt 3 connection. The 5K using the MST hub requires a DisplayPort 1.4 connection. The 4K through the Thunderbolt port requires only a DisplayPort 1.2 connection.
  4. Disconnecting the 5K and 4K and reconnecting the 4K returns the RGB option to the 4K. Setting the 4K to RGB and connecting the 5K to the MST hub afterward causes no image to appear on the 5K since there isn't enough Thunderbolt 3 bandwidth. The 5K doesn't work when the 4K is disconnected. The 5K must be disconnected and reconnected for it to work again.
  5. Connect the 5K as in #2, then add the 4K to the MST hub limits the 5K to 8bpc. The 4K works at 1080p. Attempting 10bpc on the 5K causes no image on both displays. Attempting 1440p on the 4K doesn't cause a change to the 4K (remains at 1080p). 1440p on the 4K will work if the 5K is first set to YCbCr422.
  6. Connecting more than one display to a MST hub port in MacOS causes both displays to show the same image. MacOS shows only one display as connected.
  7. Connecting both cables of the 5K to the MST hub causes the display to be blank in MacOS.
  8. 5K works in MacOS when only one cable of the 5K display is connected to the MST hub and no other cable is connected to the MST hub and the other cable of the 5K display is connected to the Thunderbolt port.
 
Thunderbolt Mode: Two displays tests (Using a PC with Titan X (Maxwell)):
  1. Connecting two [email protected] displays doesn't work from the MST hub because the Maxwell card only supports DisplayPort 1.2 (tested in Windows since MacOS doesn't support MST). A display connected to the MST hub can use 4K only if the other display connected to the MST hub is set at a lower resolution like 1440p 8bpc YCbCr422.
 
Thunderbolt Mode: Two displays tests (Using a PC with GTX 1070 (Pascal)):
  1. Two 4K 8bpc displays does work from the MST hub, but one display needs to be set to YCbCr. Two RGB streams only requires 25.60 Gbps which should work (DisplayPort 1.4 max is 25.92 Gbps). Even if you consider DisplayPort 1.2 audio, which gives 25.89 Gbps, it should still work. DisplayPort 1.4 audio gives 26.19 Gbps which doesn't work. There isn't a way to disable audio. Does HDCP add overhead?
 
Thunderbolt Mode: Test with Alpine Ridge Thunderbolt device:
  1. Connected the HP Dock (Titan Ridge) after an OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock (Alpine Ridge) which is connected to a GC-TITAN RIDGE. The DisplayPort 1.4 signal is able to pass from the graphics card through the GC-TITAN RIDGE, through the Alpine Ridge of the OWC Dock, and out of the HP Dock's Titan Ridge.
 
Problems:
  1. The Dock does not seem to work when connected directly to a Thunderbolt 2 port of a MacBook Pro 2015 with an Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter. The Dock will work when it is connected to a Thunderbolt 3 device that is connected to the Thunderbolt 2 port.
  2. The graphics of the MacBook Pro (AMD Radeon R9 M370X) works through the Dock if the Dock is connected via a Thunderbolt 2 port of the MacBook Pro. However, when the Dock is connected to a GC-TITAN RIDGE and the two Mini DisplayPort inputs of the GC-TITAN RIDGE are connected to the MacBook Pro, graphics output from the Dock only works from the Thunderbolt port, and not any of the MST Hub ports.
 
Future Tests:
  1. I don't have an AMD card that supports DisplayPort 1.4.
  2. I will try a USB 2.0 + DisplayPort to USB-C cable later.
  3. I would like to test the capability of the MST Hub to convert two lanes of DisplayPort 1.4 to four lanes of DisplayPort 1.2 allowing 4K 60Hz from a USB-C with DisplayPort 1.4 alt mode source. The output would be limited to 75% bandwidth of DisplayPort 1.2 because DisplayPort 1.4 is only 50% faster per lane. I don't have such a source that is not also a Thunderbolt port (such as a GC-TITAN RIDGE, or a recent MacBook Pro with Titan Ridge controllers and Radeon graphics). I don't know of a method to force USB Mode of the Dock when connected to a Thunderbolt port because I believe normal USB-C cables capable of USB-C with DisplayPort alt mode also work as Thunderbolt cables (but probably limited to 20 Gbps). A second HP Thunderbolt Dock G2 would work as a source, but connecting two MST hubs together is not a valid test of a single MST hub's capabilities or function. The USB-C port of an Nvidia RTX card would work as a source.
 
Notes:
  • b = bits
  • pc = per component or per color
  • pp = per pixel
  • RGB = 3 colors per pixel (Red, Green, Blue) at 8bpc = 24bpp
  • YCbCr422 = 16 components per 8 pixels (Y, Cb, Cr) at 8bpc = 16bpp
  • DisplayPort 1.2 four lanes = 17.28 Gbps
  • DisplayPort 1.4 four lanes = 25.92 Gbps
  • DisplayPort 1.2 audio = 768kHz, 24 bit, 8 channel = 0.147456 Gbps
  • DisplayPort 1.4 audio 1536kHz, 24 bit, 8 channel = 0.294912 Gbps
  • 1080p = [email protected] = 138.56 MHz
  • 1440p = [email protected] = 241.56 MHz
  • [email protected] (half of 5K) = 483.31 MHz
  • 4K = [email protected] = 533.31 MHz
  • [email protected] = 567.31 MHz
  • [email protected] = 605.06 MHz
  • 5K = [email protected] = 938.31 MHz
  • To get Gbps, multiple MHz and bpp and divide by 1000.
 
Edits:
  1. Updated tests with Titan X (Maxwell) which only supports DisplayPort 1.2.
  2. Added tests with GTX 1070 (Pascal) which does support DisplayPort 1.4.
  3. Added a test with an Alpine Ridge device.
  4. Added notes section.
  5. Added USB Mode: DisplayPort alt mode tests.
  6. Added Future Test #2 and #3.
  7. Added Ubuntu notes.
  8. Added USB Mode notes for MacBook Pro 2015 with Sunix UPD2018.
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joevt
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May 6, 2019 9:32 am  

Success! 5K dual cable DisplayPort 1.2 SST display sourced from a single DisplayPort 1.4 port of a graphics card using a DisplayPort 1.4 MST hub (Windows only). I've updated the previous post with the necessary info (my old Maxwell based card doesn't support DisplayPort 1.4 but my newer GTX 1070 does).

This might work with the LG UltraFine 5K display, but you need a GC-TITAN RIDGE to transmit the DisplayPort 1.4 MST signal over Thunderbolt 3 to the HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, then a GC-ALPINE RIDGE or GC-TITAN RIDGE to transmit the two DisplayPort 1.2 SST signals over Thunderbolt 3 to the LG UltraFine 5K display.

For macOS, I remember that it supports MST for 4K displays where one stream is for the left half and another stream is for the right half of the display. I wonder how difficult it would be to patch the driver to do the same for 5K displays...

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wimpzilla
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May 6, 2019 5:46 pm  

@ joevt

Thanks a lot for this detailed explanation and/or guide.

I'm very pleased to read this kind of post.

Still didn't understand how Apple is doing, maybe in the same way mixing 2*Dp1.2 before sending it through one cable to the Ultrafine, using some kind of MST to SST chip like the dock?

This post was modified 2 months ago

2012 13-inch Dell Latitude E6320 + R9 [email protected] (EXP GDC 8.4) + Win10
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joevt
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May 6, 2019 11:51 pm  

Nvidia cards support 4 displays even though they may have 5 connectors. The graphics driver can detect all displays and you can choose to disable any of them and enable up to 4 of them.

A dual cable 5K display counts as one display, whether you connect it using a single DisplayPort 1.4 cable with MST hub or dual DisplayPort 1.2 cables. This means you can connect 3 other displays. I don't know if this means any one of the other 3 displays can also be a dual cable 5K displays since I only have one of those. At least you should be able to connect two 5K displays. The question is, if you can connect a 3rd and fourth display after that, and if one of those (if you have 3 DisplayPorts) or both (if you have 4 DisplayPorts) can be a dual cable 5K display.

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joevt
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May 7, 2019 12:16 am  
Posted by: wimpzilla

Still didn't understand how Apple is doing, maybe in the same way mixing 2*Dp1.2 before sending it through one cable to the Ultrafine, using some kind of MST to SST chip like the dock?

The LG UltraFine 5K display is a dual-cable (or dual-link) DisplayPort 1.2 SST display, just like the Dell UP2715K and HP Z27q. There is zero difference.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT206587
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT207448

In the case of the LG UltraFine 5K the one cable you are referring to is a Thunderbolt 3 cable. There is a Thunderbolt 3 controller in the computer that takes two DisplayPort inputs from the GPU, converts the DisplayPort data to Thunderbolt, and transmits them over the Thunderbolt cable to the Thunderbolt 3 controller in the display. The Thunderbolt 3 controller in the display takes the Thunderbolt DisplayPort data and converts them back into two DisplayPort signals.

All of those dual-link displays use one DisplayPort signal for the left half of the screen, and another DisplayPort signal for the right half of the screen. The two halves of the display act like separate displays, but the graphics driver knows they belong to a single display. In macOS, Nvidia only supports this dual-link feature for the Dell UP2715K (it's hard coded in the driver). There are some strange problems that can occur in macOS with the Nvidia graphics driver: sometimes the mouse cursor shown on the left half of the display is different than the right half of the display and you can see half of each cursor when it's in the middle of the display.

The 4K MST displays are similar. Instead of using two DisplayPort SST signals, they take a single DisplayPort signal that contains two streams of DisplayPort MST data.

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wimpzilla
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May 8, 2019 6:45 am  

@ joevt

Understood, thanks you.
I initially thought one would need additional components to do so. 
I realize now all this can be done through drivers, as you explain.

Does HDCP add overhead?
Good question, being by itself an encryption protocol used to secure the video data, for sure it didn't bring any good to the latency and bandwidth.

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2012 13-inch Dell Latitude E6320 + R9 [email protected]ps-mPCIe (EXP GDC 8.4) + Win10
E=Mc²


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joevt
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May 9, 2019 3:13 am  

Added "USB Mode: DisplayPort alt mode" tests and "Future Test" #2 and #3 to above HP Thunderbolt Dock G2 notes.

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theitsage
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May 9, 2019 3:28 am  

@joevt3 Amazing work testing and documenting the Titan Ridge dock! I heard one reason Titan Ridge controllers are not widely used in eGPU enclosures is due to compatibility issues with USB-C only hosts in Windows. Of course not much info from Intel so what you're doing are very helpful.

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DamianS555
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May 9, 2019 3:21 pm  

@joevt3 Is there any chance you could test if the docking station works with Sunix UDP2018 under Linux distribution please ?

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joevt
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May 10, 2019 7:22 am  
Posted by: theitsage

@joevt3 Amazing work testing and documenting the Titan Ridge dock! I heard one reason Titan Ridge controllers are not widely used in eGPU enclosures is due to compatibility issues with USB-C only hosts in Windows. Of course not much info from Intel so what you're doing are very helpful.

You can't run a GPU over USB, so I'm not sure why you would want to connect one to a USB only host. Does Titan Ridge not fix the problem that chaining two Alpine Ridge chips is supposed to solve? The DisplayPort output feature of the Thunderbolt controller isn't exposed in most eGPUs, so the fact that the Titan Ridge does DisplayPort 1.4 isn't useful in that case (except as its done in the BlackMagic eGPUs).

Posted by: DamianS555

@joevt3 Is there any chance you could test if the docking station works with Sunix UDP2018 under Linux distribution please ?

I'll try later today or tomorrow. I suppose the only question to be answered by this testing is if it behaves better than Windows (like MacOS) with the Maxwell card.

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joevt
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May 10, 2019 7:58 am  
  1. Added Ubuntu notes.
  2. Added USB Mode notes for MacBook Pro 2015 with Sunix UPD2018.

I still need to try Ubuntu with the Sunix and GTX 1070. I didn't have any problems with Windows and MacOS in that case.

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Jun 9, 2019 5:25 am  

I updated to Ubuntu 19.04. It seems to support dual cable 5K 60Hz without problem. I don't think earlier versions worked with that kind of 5K display. With Titan X (Maxwell) I had issues with getting two displays to work from the MST hub.

Thunderbolt mode GTX 1070, Ubuntu:
I can connect multiple displays to the MST hub. 5K works when one cable is connected to MST hub and second cable is connected to Thunderbolt port. In this configuration, I can connect another smaller display (1856 x 1392) to another port of the MST hub. I couldn't get 5K with both cables connected to the MST hub (unlike with Windows).

USB-C mode GTX 1070, Ubuntu:
With the Sunix UPD2018, I could connect a 4K 30 Hz display to the MST hub. I couldn't get two displays connected (maybe because one of them was a 4K display). Setting the first display to a lower resolution wouldn't allow another display to be connected.

I tried a Huawei VR 2 Computer Connection Cable but it did not work (same as the Moshi cable). I guess there's no way to get 4 lanes of DisplayPort in USB-C mode to the MST hub.

There is a NVIDIA X Server Settings app in Ubuntu. One interesting thing about it is that it shows DisplayPort connection link (for example, 2 lanes @ 5.40 Gbps in the case of USB-C mode). Another interesting thing is that it includes MST hub port number in the port names. For example, an Nvidia card has ports DP-1, DP-2, DP-3. The three ports of an MST hub connected to DP-2 would be named DP-2.1, DP-2.2, DP-2.3.

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