List of Intel Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 Devices
 
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List of Intel Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 Devices  

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wimpzilla
(@wimpzilla)
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@joevt

You have nothing to apologise, it's fine you are not being rude, nor impolite.

I'm more than happy to loose my time on arguing on things, calling BS on me when i mistake but not when it need extensive explanation for a math error you could just had pointed, fixed and moved on the next topic, since you clearly shown being a quite knowledgeable user already.

Edit:
To come back to your previous question, i'm not sure this new Titan Ridge card have a specific power delivery purpose.
If i check the site advertising, i suppose the manufacturer aimed to daisy chain a lot of devices, up to 6 per port plus a display.
Tho citing the PD 3.0 as a feature, supported up to 100W.

I checked the USB PD power 3.0 specification here.
It seems to me that the PD power need to follow some strict precise rules for each PD power range, see the figure page 471.

Captureb

To be honest with you, i tried to think about nowadays/leaked hardware devices that would need to be powered and used on desktop or workstations.
But i couldn't find one easily just looking at what already exist, since most of the TBT devices are also self powered.
So at the end maybe the card was developed as it is to simply conform USB PD specifications for 100W, that obviously nor fit with the max 75W PCI-E specification.
And i do not see anything strange implementing the card in this way, from a desktop, workstation usage and branding point of view.

Maybe the only thing that come into mind would be all the FPGA and IoT devices powered and daisy chained over TBT.
This is another field where intel is pretty active and where I/O solutions are quite important to deal with the growing amount of data FPGA could take.

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joevt
(@joevt)
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I wasn't calling BS on you though. I honestly did not know it was a math error. Fixing your comment would have been too presumptuous of me in that case.

The site advertising is not indicative of the manufacturer's aim to daisy chain, as that has been a feature of Thunderbolt since the first iteration (Thunderbolt 1) and the image of daisy chaining 6 Thunderbolt devices plus displays has been used since then. What's new is the image of 8K displays. Also new (I don't recall seeing it before) is the image of daisy chaining three displays (shown in the manual), but that is just the MST feature of DisplayPort 1.2 which even Thunderbolt 2 is capable.

It might be nice if there were Thunderbolt devices that could use that power so they would not require their own power supplies. They would have to be built to allow power from either source to make them compatible with most existing implementations of Thunderbolt.

The take away from that PD image is that standard modes have voltages at 5V, 9V, 15V, 20V with maximum power of 15W, 27W, 45W, 100W respectively. Current is not to exceed 3A except in the case of 20V where more than 60W is required, in which case a 5A cable is required. A source with a certain power rating must allow for all the standard voltages up to the minimum standard voltage required for that power rating. The PD spec goes on to mention that different voltages can be programmed between 3V and 21V for specific devices but the source must also support all standard modes up to it's specified power rating. The programmed modes can allow lower voltages to use higher currents up to 5A or they can allow higher voltages at lower currents.

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karatekid430
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Yikes guys, that is a lot of mathematics, and to prove what? Also last time I checked, Molex is 75W and 6-pin is 150W. But they might only be interested in one voltage from the connector, meaning there could be less available for them to use. I hope that they are not relying on the 75W from the PCIe slot, as it would make a kick-arse charging station outside of a computer simply by connecting it to a power supply with the 6-pin connectors. If it needs the PCIe slot power also, then that means a cumbersome riser to power that. Especially if it needs 3.3V from the slot, which not all risers provide (either need to use SATA power instead of Molex, or make 3.3V from other voltages with a decent buck converter).

Given the following:
a) Earlier on this year, an employee at Gigabyte hinted to me that GC-TITAN RIDGE was coming, and to think 100W
b) 2x 6-pin power is double what my R9 Nano graphics cards have

We can safely assume that both ports are likely 100W. I can use my USB PD Buddy Sink to read out the capabilities when I receive my 2x GC-TITAN RIDGE cards I ordered.

I hope they are not as dodgy as the last one - the GC-ALPINE RIDGE is noncompliant, violates superset rule. It has 5V@3A and 12V@3A. Chargers must support all lower voltages at 3A than their maximum voltage (with 12V being the exception, that is optional). So it should have 9V@3A in there too, to comply with the PD specification.

Their GA-Z170X-DESIGNARE has the 5V, 12V (3A) on one Thunderbolt port, and the other is 5V, 12V (3A) and 20V@5A (it should have 9V@3A and 15V@3A to be compliant).

The Gigabyte Aorus Gaming Box is compliant - 5V@3A, 9V@3A, 15V@3A and 20V@5A. It would have been nice if they included the optional 12V mode - for instance, I am fairly sure the SurfaceConnect to USB-C dongle by Microsoft will use 12V.

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karatekid430
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Posted by: joevt
Posted by: karatekid430

It's beautiful despite the HDMI port. And given the extra power connectors at the back, it is fairly safe to say it has 100W power delivery like Gigabyte hinted to me months ago....

In the picture, The GC-TITAN RIDGE appears to have a DisplayPort. The GC-ALPINE RIDGE had an HDMI port. I wonder if the DisplayPort supports DisplayPort Dual-Mode (DP++) and if that includes HDMI 2.0? Dual-Mode with HDMI 2.0 support is mandatory for DisplayPort 1.3 according to wikipedia.

The picture also shows that the GC-TITAN RIDGE is slightly longer than the GC-ALPINE RIDGE but still shorter than a half length PCIe card.

Is the 100W of power delivery per Thunderbolt 3 port or total? I guess you could charge a laptop with this? I suppose you need to check your desktop's power supply to make sure it can handle that.

I assume the power is for Thunderbolt 3 peripherals (add-in card acts as a source) and not the desktop (add-in card as a sink) because desktops need much more than 100W.

Gigabyte hasn't posted a product page, manuals, firmware, compatibility list yet?

It did occur to me that it might look like a DisplayPort, instead of a HDMI. However, those two pictures are all we have to go on right now.... there do not appear to be others - as you say - Gigabyte has not yet published anything.

Given the GA-Z170X-DESIGNARE said 100W and their Aorus Facebook support told me that both ports were 100W simultaneously, it could be that only one is 100W (on the motherboard, one is 100W and the other is 36W). However, the Asus USB 3.1 PD Bay does 100W power delivery from two Molex (150W) so this 2x 6-pin (300W) implies that both ports would deliver 100W to justify that.

Yes, the power will be to peripherals. The Thunderbolt controllers themselves only use 2-3W. Given that the older Thunderbolt 3 AICs were (afaik) all 2x 36W ports with no aux power connectors, that leaves 75W-2*36W = 3W left for the logic circuitry.

Edit: Here's a possible explanation as to why they have not published it. It is not featured on the Thunderbolt Technology products list, which means it has not passed certification. Perhaps it has passed but has not yet been issued a certificate. But then again, if this is the reason, then why would it be on sale? Could Amazon have jumped the gun with stock that was meant to be withheld until a deadline?

https://thunderbolttechnology.net/products?tid=16&field_company_nid=All&field_prod_os_value_many_to_one=All&field_prod_tb_version_value_many_to_one=tbv3

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joevt
(@joevt)
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Posted by: karatekid430

last time I checked, Molex is 75W and 6-pin is 150W. But they might only be interested in one voltage from the connector, meaning there could be less available for them to use.

6-pin is 75W. 8-pin is 150W. They only have 12V lines (from PCI Express in wikipedia)

Posted by: karatekid430

I hope that they are not relying on the 75W from the PCIe slot ... the GC-ALPINE RIDGE is noncompliant, violates superset rule. It has 5V@3A and 12V@3A.

I don't think the PCIe slot provides more than 25W as that's the max for a x4 slot (also from PCI Express in wikipedia). Are you sure the GC-ALPINE RIDGE is using more than that? Well, most motherboards have x16 slots where the Thunderbolt add-in card goes. So maybe any x16 physical slot is supposed to allow 75W? Maybe the GC-ALPINE RIDGE can work in a 25W or a 75W slot, and adjusts power delivery options accordingly? There's probably a PCIe register that indicates the voltage of the slot. I should try to find that in the PCIe spec and use pciutils to read the current value if possible.

Posted by: karatekid430

We can safely assume that both ports are likely 100W.

Posted by: karatekid430

It did occur to me that it might look like a DisplayPort, instead of a HDMI. However, those two pictures are all we have to go on right now.... there do not appear to be others - as you say - Gigabyte has not yet published anything.

You missed my post where I mentioned they added a web page with specs and a product manual.

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wimpzilla
(@wimpzilla)
Honorable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
 

Yep i did not thought that the PD transaction on USB 3.1 was so complex, happy to had dug a bit understanding that point. I mean this kind of dynamic power transaction between the devices is sure well designed. Have no idea tho if these standard are fairly respected abroad the Tech manufactures.

Another explanation would be enhancing support for devices that ere not natively TBT. Since the Titan Ridge seems offer more flexibility to connect other non TBT devices, the power delivery has been updated to match the existing wide range of non TBT hardware.

I think one can override the PCI-E 75W limitation even if tied to a smaller PCI-E bus bandwidth.
For sure i remember gpu's that pushed more than 75W from the slot, since the VRM power plane was shared with the PCI-E 6/8pin connector.
I think AMD rapidly reverted the power usage balance toward the 6/8pin keeping the PCI-E slot under 75W, something like 68/70Wmax.
As said before more for safety reasons, since the 12V PCI-E power plane is not designated to handle more than 8/10A without damages, especially on lower end boards imo.

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karatekid430
(@karatekid430)
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Joined: 4 years ago
 
Posted by: joevt
Posted by: karatekid430

last time I checked, Molex is 75W and 6-pin is 150W. But they might only be interested in one voltage from the connector, meaning there could be less available for them to use.

6-pin is 75W. 8-pin is 150W. They only have 12V lines (from PCI Express in wikipedia)

Posted by: karatekid430

I hope that they are not relying on the 75W from the PCIe slot ... the GC-ALPINE RIDGE is noncompliant, violates superset rule. It has 5V@3A and 12V@3A.

I don't think the PCIe slot provides more than 25W as that's the max for a x4 slot (also from PCI Express in wikipedia). Are you sure the GC-ALPINE RIDGE is using more than that? Well, most motherboards have x16 slots where the Thunderbolt add-in card goes. So maybe any x16 physical slot is supposed to allow 75W? Maybe the GC-ALPINE RIDGE can work in a 25W or a 75W slot, and adjusts power delivery options accordingly? There's probably a PCIe register that indicates the voltage of the slot. I should try to find that in the PCIe spec and use pciutils to read the current value if possible.

Posted by: karatekid430

We can safely assume that both ports are likely 100W.

Posted by: karatekid430

It did occur to me that it might look like a DisplayPort, instead of a HDMI. However, those two pictures are all we have to go on right now.... there do not appear to be others - as you say - Gigabyte has not yet published anything.

You missed my post where I mentioned they added a web page with specs and a product manual.

Oops, missed it. The funny thing was before I posted I checked "GC-TITAN RIDGE site:gigabyte.com" on search engines and got nothing.

And the GC-ALPINE RIDGE absolutely can output 2x 36W (12V@3A) at once. If you want I can photograph charging 2x Dell 9370 off it. Afaik 75W is available regardless of slot length. Then again, the vendors are very particular about which slots are supported, so they could be drawing more than normal because they have made sure the support slots of the supported motherboards can handle it.

This is why I believe that slots should not provide any power whatsoever, with the exception of the M.2 slot (afaik 8W but no idea where I read that). Besides, PCIe 5.0 is set to be optical, so this makes sense. Can have all PCIe as SFF optical cables (like U.2), power from power supply. That will give case manufacturers massive scope for innovation and creativity in moving devices relative to the motherboard. It would make things so much more interesting.

It is also worth noting that the USB-PD specification explicitly states that any device with more than one USB-PD output must act as two separate chargers i.e. no interaction between the two, with the sole exception of regulatory compliance (I am guessing an example of which is an overload or malfunction on one port might warrant shutting down the whole device for safety). So as far as I know, that prohibits having ports sharing power, such as either port having some wattage, but not both at once.

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karatekid430
(@karatekid430)
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Joined: 4 years ago
 

Aw that effing sucks. On their website, only one port is 100W. So why do they need 300W of power supply connectors? Edit2: balls, so 6-pin is only 75W? My bad. But then what's the point? You would just use Molex for 75W, and Molex connectors are usually available in greater quantities from the PSU.

Edit: also what the fudge is the USB 2.0 header for? The last add-in cards did not have the USB 2.0 header cable. And it's not like it should need it - Thunderbolt controllers have their own integrated USB controllers inside.

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itsage
(@itsage)
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Joined: 5 years ago
 

Here are some information from the manual. The top DisplayPort 1.4 is an input that provides flexibility for newer high-resolution (up to 8K) monitor via Thunderbolt 3. The dual mini-DisplaPorts are for monitors such as the LG UltraFine 5K which requires MST dual-link SST via Thunderbolt 3.

Chip

Š Intel® DSL7540 ThunderboltTM 3 Controller

Back Panel Connectors

Š 1 x DisplayPort In port, supporting a maximum resolution of 8K (7680x3840)@60 Hz (Note 1) (Note 2)

* Support for DisplayPort 1.4 version, HDCP 2.2, and HDR.
Š 2 x ThunderboltTM 3 out ports (ThunderboltTM 3 Port 1/ThunderboltTM 3 Port 2), supporting up to 40 Gbps bandwidth and a maximum

display resolution of 8K (7680x3840)@60 Hz (Note 1) (Note 2) Š 2 x Mini-DisplayPort In ports (DP_IN1/DP_IN2)

Internal Connectors

Š 2 x 6-pin PCIe power connectors
Š 1 x USB 2.0/1.1 header
Š 1x5-pinJ1header,connectingtothemotherboardTHB_Cheader

by the included THB_C header cable

Interface

Š PCIe 3.0 interface (PCIe x4)

Data Transfer Rate

Š 40 Gbps Bi-directional per port

Supported Operating Systems

Š Support for Windows 10 (64-bit) with RS3 or later

Compatible Motherboards

Š Go to GIGABYTE’s website for the latest motherboard support list.

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joevt
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Posted by: itsage

Here are some information from the manual. The top DisplayPort 1.4 is an input that provides flexibility for newer high-resolution (up to 8K) monitor via Thunderbolt 3. The dual mini-DisplaPorts are for monitors such as the LG UltraFine 5K which requires MST via Thunderbolt 3.

I said previously that I believe that is a typo. At least I don't think it has anything to do with 8K input as there is only one of those ports, yet the card supports two 8K displays (one per Thunderbolt port). Other parts of the manual do not include the "In" qualifier when mentioning the port. Also, If it was meant to be connected to a graphics card, then you would think they would include a cable for that, as they do for the Mini DisplayPort inputs.

It seems more likely that the DisplayPort is an output analogous to the HDMI port of the GC-ALPINE RIDGE or the HDMI or DisplayPort of a Thunderbolt dock.

Actually (I just tried it now) Google translate (of both versions of Chinese) says "1 DisplayPort output socket, can support up to 8K (7680x3840) @60Hz resolution (Note 1) (Note 2)". 

I'm not sure the LG UltraFine 5K uses MST. Apple describes the connection as dual-link SST in their support document "Connect multiple displays to your iMac Pro". MST is something that happens with a single DisplayPort connection. Dual-link SST uses two DisplayPort connections. Thunderbolt transmits two DisplayPort connections over Thunderbolt by encapsulating the DisplayPort bytes into a Thunderbolt stream. DisplayPort bytes used for the vertical and horizontal blanking or any other stuffing symbols are not transmitted to save bandwidth. They are recreated when converting the Thunderbolt stream back to DisplayPort by another Thunderbolt controller. This is what happens inside the LG UltraFine 5K, which makes it the same as a Dell 5K. The two DisplayPort connections are completely independent and can therefore be used for any type and combination of monitors or chains of monitors (using MST).

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