US$349 Mantiz Venus TB3 enclosure/dock
 
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US$349 Mantiz Venus TB3 enclosure/dock  

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nando4
(@nando4)
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Posted by: Mymantiz_John  

HI:

According to your suggestion, we had requested to Intel to increase the limitation from 22G to 32G. and for the current design, AR support the USB w/o going through the PCI-E. AR chip directly support the usb interface. Our IO board design is an individual USB-Hub to the Type A & Gigabite Lan. it won’t effect to the PCI-e Bandwidth. We will test it after getting Intel’s approval. Thank you.

John the 22Gbps parameter may set the min PCIe slot bandwidth, leaving up to 10Gbps for the TB3’s USB 3.1 controller. With no additional devices attached, you’d probably get max 32Gbps.

Any enclosure device (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN) attached via the TB3 controller’s PCIe bridge or USB 3.1 controller (hangs off the PCIe bridge) will then use some of the 32Gbps PCIe bandwidth. As there is no additional TB3 daisychaining port to attach a DP LCD, I believe it’s not possible to get 40Gbps from the Mantiz enclosures.

Would you mind posting a hwinfo64 pic of your hardware layout like shown here ?

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (6th,4C,H) + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 // compares M.2 vs TB3 performance


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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: nando4

 

Posted by: Mymantiz_John  

HI:

According to your suggestion, we had requested to Intel to increase the limitation from 22G to 32G. and for the current design, AR support the USB w/o going through the PCI-E. AR chip directly support the usb interface. Our IO board design is an individual USB-Hub to the Type A & Gigabite Lan. it won't effect to the PCI-e Bandwidth. We will test it after getting Intel's approval. Thank you.

John the 22Gbps parameter may set the min PCIe slot bandwidth, leaving up to 10Gbps for the TB3's USB 3.1 controller. With no additional devices attached, you'd probably get max 32Gbps.

Any enclosure device (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN) attached via the TB3 controller's PCIe bridge or USB 3.1 controller (hangs off the PCIe bridge) will then use some of the 32Gbps PCIe bandwidth. As there is no additional TB3 daisychaining port to attach a DP LCD, I believe it's not possible to get 40Gbps from the Mantiz enclosures.

I assume your SATA, LAN, USB 3.0 ports

   

HI:

I think you were mislead by the HWinfo64. Please check my attached , directly screenshot from the Windows 10 device manager.

Host Thunderbolt

B: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 1

C: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 2

you can see the USB controller is not under B and B&C are the same level. B+C is total 40GB. so, there's nothing related with the Lan 1 PCI-e x 4. 

Mantiz: ● ●


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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: Mymantiz_John

 

Posted by: nando4

 

Posted by: Mymantiz_John  

HI:

According to your suggestion, we had requested to Intel to increase the limitation from 22G to 32G. and for the current design, AR support the USB w/o going through the PCI-E. AR chip directly support the usb interface. Our IO board design is an individual USB-Hub to the Type A & Gigabite Lan. it won't effect to the PCI-e Bandwidth. We will test it after getting Intel's approval. Thank you.

John the 22Gbps parameter may set the min PCIe slot bandwidth, leaving up to 10Gbps for the TB3's USB 3.1 controller. With no additional devices attached, you'd probably get max 32Gbps.

Any enclosure device (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN) attached via the TB3 controller's PCIe bridge or USB 3.1 controller (hangs off the PCIe bridge) will then use some of the 32Gbps PCIe bandwidth. As there is no additional TB3 daisychaining port to attach a DP LCD, I believe it's not possible to get 40Gbps from the Mantiz enclosures.

I assume your SATA, LAN, USB 3.0 ports

   

HI:

I think you were mislead by the HWinfo64. Please check my attached , directly screenshot from the Windows 10 device manager.

Host Thunderbolt

B: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 1

C: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 2

you can see the USB controller is not under B and B&C are the same level. B+C is total 40GB. so, there's nothing related with the Lan 1 PCI-e x 4. 

   

Mantiz: ● ●


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nando4
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Posted by: Mymantiz_John

 HI:

I think you were mislead by the HWinfo64. Please check my attached , directly screenshot from the Windows 10 device manager.

Host Thunderbolt

B: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 1

C: Mantiz DSL6540 Lane 2

you can see the USB controller is not under B and B&C are the same level. B+C is total 40GB. so, there’s nothing related with the Lan 1 PCI-e x 4. 

   

I can see LAN and USB are coming off the TB3 USB controller, which itself goes back to the TB3 PCIe bridge. The PCIe bridge communicates back with the host whose root PCIe port runs at 32Gbps.

So yes, use of your additional ports will share the 32Gbps-TB2 PCIe bandwidth with the PCIe video card. That’s to be expected. Only way around that would be to install a USB hub in the enclosure and run a separate USB cable back to the host, like XG Station2 does.

Don’t worry.. the Venus/Saturn is not a XG2 Station $699 device. Our users are looking at it for it’s benefits over the Node: 60W charging, additional ports, smaller chassis for a small price bump.

Though you may wish to put in the fine print that use of those devices will take some eGPU bandwidth so you don’t get returns.

If the enclosure has a TB3 daisychain port and attached a DP LCD, then could get 40Gbps of combined PCIe+DP traffic across the TB3 link. So any TB3 enclosure without the daisychaining port are 32Gbps-TB3 devices. Bet you someone will return one when they find out they are not 40Gbps as advertised.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (6th,4C,H) + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 // compares M.2 vs TB3 performance


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rhx123
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Nando, I think you are mistaken here, TB3 does not carry USB3 over PCIe, it can take bandwith from the remaining 8 gbps.

The USB data is sent directly over TB3 packets. If you look at the PCB you will see the PCIe lanes come directly from the TB3 chip, which does not have a PCIe switch in it, just look at the cost of PLX chips.... 

This is why the USB/Lan ports worked on hosts that did not support the eGPU protocol on the old firmware version.

XPS 13 9360 + Acer Graphics Dock


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nando4
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Posted by: Richard

 

Nando, I think you are mistaken here, TB3 does not carry USB3 over PCIe, it can take bandwith from the remaining 8 gbps.

The USB data is sent directly over TB3 packets. If you look at the PCB you will see the PCIe lanes come directly from the TB3 chip, which does not have a PCIe switch in it, just look at the cost of PLX chips…. 

This is why the USB/Lan ports worked on hosts that did not support the eGPU protocol on the old firmware version.

   

No mistake at all. The layout is best seen and explained here , copied below (just ignore the annotation). TB3 does carry USB 3.1 per wikipedia.

The TB3 USB 3.1 controller sits under a PCIe bridge. They all communicate back down via the host’s PCIe root port, which for the XPS shown below, is a x2 3.0 16Gbps link (max) but for 2016 MBPs is a x4 3.0 32Gbps link.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (6th,4C,H) + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 // compares M.2 vs TB3 performance


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rhx123
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Yes, the point is kind of moot because of the link between the TB3 controller and host CPU. Not forgetting the limitation with the TB3 controller coming from the Chipset and not the CPU, DMI3.0 limits EVERY PCIe device hung off the chipset to effectivly PCIe 3.0 speeds. This includes M.2 SSD. See just over half way down this page:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10343/the-intel-skull-canyon-nuc6i7kyk-minipc-review

XPS 13 9360 + Acer Graphics Dock


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jconly
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Sorry guys, I got a little lost here with this latest chatter. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm taking away from this is that:

PCIe portion of TB3 link is used for the GPU itself, running at 32GB.  
The remaining 8GB of the 40GB spec is used as a USB channel, providing bandwidth to the other items on board (Network, USB, Sata)

If this is the case, then no GPU performance lost utilizing the extra ports, compared to running a GPU on the Node without additional ports.  

 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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peroksid
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Do you plan to have a European distributor?

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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itsage
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Posted by: peroksid

Do you plan to have a European distributor?   

Mantiz is looking for European and North American distributors, if anybody has connections/contacts please let us or @Mymantiz_John know.

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goalque
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Posted by: jconly

 

Sorry guys, I got a little lost here with this latest chatter. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm taking away from this is that:

PCIe portion of TB3 link is used for the GPU itself, running at 32GB.  
The remaining 8GB of the 40GB spec is used as a USB channel, providing bandwidth to the other items on board (Network, USB, Sata)

If this is the case, then no GPU performance lost utilizing the extra ports, compared to running a GPU on the Node without additional ports.  

 

   

The official document explains it clearly:

https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/HBD16235_Thunderbolt_TB_r05.pdf

As for eGPUs, it’s always PCIe 3.0 x4 at both ends, roughly max 2750MB/s. However, TB3 should be able to provide bidirectional 40Gbps connection if we count the protocols together, dynamically switching between USB, DP, and TB.

"However, it is key to understand that the Thunderbolt interface is bidirectional, while display traffic is mostly outbound from the host system. If the Thunderbolt link is using a PCI Express device to ingest traffic to the host system, that PCI Express bandwidth will be largely unaffected by outbound display traffic (outside of some flow control impacts)."

automate-eGPU EFIapple_set_os.efi

Mid 2015 15-inch MacBook Pro eGPU Master Thread


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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: goalque

 

Posted by: jconly

 

Sorry guys, I got a little lost here with this latest chatter. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm taking away from this is that:

PCIe portion of TB3 link is used for the GPU itself, running at 32GB.  
The remaining 8GB of the 40GB spec is used as a USB channel, providing bandwidth to the other items on board (Network, USB, Sata)

If this is the case, then no GPU performance lost utilizing the extra ports, compared to running a GPU on the Node without additional ports.  

 

   

The official document explains it clearly:

https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/HBD16235_Thunderbolt_TB_r05.pdf

As for eGPUs, it’s always PCIe 3.0 x4 at both ends, roughly max 2750MB/s. However, TB3 should be able to provide bidirectional 40Gbps connection if we count the protocols together, dynamically switching between USB, DP, and TB.

"However, it is key to understand that the Thunderbolt interface is bidirectional, while display traffic is mostly outbound from the host system. If the Thunderbolt link is using a PCI Express device to ingest traffic to the host system, that PCI Express bandwidth will be largely unaffected by outbound display traffic (outside of some flow control impacts)."

   

That's why we never use PCI-e Trace for the other purpose. so, simply saying, PCI-e 32GB & others will be used for USB 3.0 interface including the Lan & USB 3.0 Hub.

 

Mantiz: ● ●


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ed_co
(@ed_co)
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Posted by: jconly

 

Sorry guys, I got a little lost here with this latest chatter. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm taking away from this is that:

PCIe portion of TB3 link is used for the GPU itself, running at 32GB.  
The remaining 8GB of the 40GB spec is used as a USB channel, providing bandwidth to the other items on board (Network, USB, Sata)

If this is the case, then no GPU performance lost utilizing the extra ports, compared to running a GPU on the Node without additional ports.  

 

   

I am pretty lost too. This was that I understand, but then someone says something that makes me doubt it. I think that this topic should be clarified.

Personally, I don't care having extra ports: usb, ethernet, sata, if this will be a lose of performance in my GPU, which is the important thing  here, not the other extra stuff... The more performance in the GPU the better, and if we are losing for the rest stuff, I prefer to have just a GPU case without extras like the node. Cheaper, and faster. That's why is really important to clarify.

Thanks!! 😉

mid-2017 Macbook Pro RP560 + MSI GTX 1080Ti Gaming [email protected] (Mantiz Venus) + macOS10.13 & Win10


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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: ed_co

 

Posted by: jconly

 

Sorry guys, I got a little lost here with this latest chatter. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm taking away from this is that:

PCIe portion of TB3 link is used for the GPU itself, running at 32GB.  
The remaining 8GB of the 40GB spec is used as a USB channel, providing bandwidth to the other items on board (Network, USB, Sata)

If this is the case, then no GPU performance lost utilizing the extra ports, compared to running a GPU on the Node without additional ports.  

 

   

I am pretty lost too. This was that I understand, but then someone says something that makes me doubt it. I think that this topic should be clarified.

Personally, I don't care having extra ports: usb, ethernet, sata, if this will be a lose of performance in my GPU, which is the important thing  here, not the other extra stuff... The more performance in the GPU the better, and if we are losing for the rest stuff, I prefer to have just a GPU case without extras like the node. Cheaper, and faster. That's why is really important to clarify.

Thanks!! 😉

   

Hi All:

Let me clarify, there's no performance lost in GPU unless the FW set it to be lower than the 32GB. Those extra ports including USB & Lan are nothing related with the PCI-e lane. it is a 40GB bandwidth and PCI-e x 4 occupied 32GB. that's it.

Mantiz: ● ●


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jconly
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Fantastic, thanks for the link to the official doc, and the clarifications!
My node pre-order keeps getting delayed.

How soon can I get my hands on the Venus?!
This is exactly what I want!

Looking forward to the product.  Thanks all.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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itsage
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I got all the components put together last night. It works great in Windows 10 with my 2016 13″ touch bar MacBook Pro. There was no error 12 which surprised me because the non-touch bar MBP has that error. The Mantiz Venus enclosure also works well in macOS. The only non-functioning feature is the Ethernet port in macOS.

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deplomb
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Posted by: itsage
Posted by: peroksid

Do you plan to have a European distributor?   

Mantiz is looking for European and North American distributors, if anybody has connections/contacts please let us or @Mymantiz_John know.

have you considered talking to
https://www.cyberport.de/
Thea are selling a lot of the Akitio range and pro stuff

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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jconly
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Sad to hear that about the OS X ethernet.  

I assume theres a driver that is installable though.

 

Any way we can confirm is this is backwards compatible to TB2  with the apple adapter.

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ikir
 ikir
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Really fantastic, can't wait. Hope there will be a driver for ethernet under macOS 


MacBook Pro 2018 Touch Bar i7 quad-core 2.7Ghz - 16GB RAM - 512GB PCIe SSD
my awesome Radeon VII eGPU
my Mantiz Venus extreme mod with Sapphire Nitro+ RX Vega 64


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mwb
 mwb
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@itsage Could you run a GPU benchmark comparing an OS booted from the MacBook Pro vs an OS booted from a drive installed in the Venus?

No worries if it's too time-consuming, but this is a setup I'm considering Smile

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itsage
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Great news! I tried this Mantiz Venus enclosure with a 2015 MacBook Air using the Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt adapter. The USB  ports and SATA connection work in macOS. Ethernet is not working same as with the 2016 MacBook Pro.

I proceeded to boot into Windows. Unfortunately Windows must not have the drivers for this Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt adapter to recognize the extra ports. I’m hopeful Mantiz may be able to supply drivers for this adapter.

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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: itsage

I got all the components put together last night. It works great in Windows 10 with my 2016 13" touch bar MacBook Pro. There was no error 12 which surprised me because the non-touch bar MBP has that error. The Mantiz Venus enclosure also works well in macOS. The only non-functioning feature is the Ethernet port in macOS.

   

HI All:

Thanks for your tests & validation. The Ethernet chip we are using AX88179. Please check the website to have driver downloaded for Mac OS.

http://www.asix.com.tw/download.php?sub=driverdetail&PItemID=131

Mantiz: ● ●


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itsage
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Posted by: Mymantiz_John 

Thanks for your tests & validation. The Ethernet chip we are using AX88179. Please check the website to have driver downloaded for Mac OS.

http://www.asix.com.tw/download.php?sub=driverdetail&PItemID=131

Thank you @Mymantiz_John! That was easy. All expansion ports on this Mantiz Venus enclosure are now working in both macOS and Windows 10 on Late 2016 MacBook Pro.

Do you know if there’s a workaround for expansion port recognition when using the Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt adapter in Windows? The eGPU functionality works but none of the ports are detected.

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Sky11
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Posted by: itsage

During my testing of this Mantiz TB3 board, I tried hooking up the Node to see if I could run CrossFire RX 480. The good news is both enclosures and their attached RX 480 showed up. The bad news is there's no CrossFire option in AMD Radeon Settings.

CrossFire won't matter much for OpenCL or CUDA tasks though. Imagine being able to hook up 4x eGPUs on a 2016 MacBook Pro!

CrossFire is not and will not be supported on XConnect. That is by design. There are however, other uses of multiple eGPUs, for example:   http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/radeon-pro-technologies/radeon-prorender

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itsage
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Posted by: mwb

@itsage Could you run a GPU benchmark comparing an OS booted from the MacBook Pro vs an OS booted from a drive installed in the Venus?

No worries if it’s too time-consuming, but this is a setup I’m considering Smile

That’s something I’d like to try eventually. What I’m running at the moment is a hybrid by partitioning the internal drive to give Windows about 50GB of space, then install games and software on the external SSD.

 

Posted by: Sky11 

CrossFire is not and will not be supported on XConnect. That is by design. There are however, other uses of multiple eGPUs, for example:   http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/radeon-pro-technologies/radeon-prorender

Thank you for the insight. I wasn’t aware of this.

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mwb
 mwb
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Posted by: itsage

That's something I'd like to try eventually. What I'm running at the moment is a hybrid by partitioning the internal drive to give Windows about 50GB of space, then install games and software on the external SSD.

Oh cool Smile And if you don't get around to it then a bench of your hybrid setup still sounds pretty useful!

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ed_co
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Posted by: deplomb

 

Posted by: itsage
Posted by: peroksid

Do you plan to have a European distributor?   

Mantiz is looking for European and North American distributors, if anybody has connections/contacts please let us or @Mymantiz_John know.

have you considered talking to
https://www.cyberport.de/
Thea are selling a lot of the Akitio range and pro stuff

   

Just in german? Sorry, but I am european and I don't speak german at all, english is not my mother tongue either, but I can handle (more or less). I think that makes more sense to sell it in amazon in europe (amazon.uk, amazon.es, amazon.de, amazon.fr, amazon.it). I think that is the better way to go for everyone.

mid-2017 Macbook Pro RP560 + MSI GTX 1080Ti Gaming [email protected] (Mantiz Venus) + macOS10.13 & Win10


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yoshiwaan
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Has this been tested with an XPS 15 9550 running windows? I know most of the other eGPUS needed a firmware update to work on that.

- Dell XPS 9550
- Windows 10
- Devilbox
- GTX 1080


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benr
 benr
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@Mymantiz_John

Is there any possibility of a second Thunderbolt 3 port on a subsequent revision of the unit? So that daisy chaining multiple units may be possible for 3D Rendering?

Even better, is there a possibility of a future dual-card unit? 50% wider, with 2 PCIe slots on the main board, and perhaps a 700-800W SFX-L PSU?

Thanks for your involvement in this forum!

 

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itsage
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Posted by: yoshiwaan

Has this been tested with an XPS 15 9550 running windows? I know most of the other eGPUS needed a firmware update to work on that.   

Our team doesn’t have the XPS 9550 to test. We do have an XPS 9360 which is very similar and can confirm the Mantiz Venus enclosure works very well with it.

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Dsntrgr8
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How big is it compared to the razer core?

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benr
 benr
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Almost identical in length and height, but a little over two inches wider. 

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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: yoshiwaan

Has this been tested with an XPS 15 9550 running windows? I know most of the other eGPUS needed a firmware update to work on that.

HI: to run in the XPS Skylake platform, w/o the FW update, host will post up a eGPU not supported, but after firmware update in TBT3, then the host still post up such a warning, but for the performance & features wise, there's no difference with the fully supported devices.

Mantiz: ● ●


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yoshiwaan
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Posted by: Mymantiz_John

 

Posted by: yoshiwaan

Has this been tested with an XPS 15 9550 running windows? I know most of the other eGPUS needed a firmware update to work on that.

HI: to run in the XPS Skylake platform, w/o the FW update, host will post up a eGPU not supported, but after firmware update in TBT3, then the host still post up such a warning, but for the performance & features wise, there's no difference with the fully supported devices.

   

Are you saying this is the case for the Venus or other eGPU solutions? If it's other eGPUs that's untrue, there are many people on this forum and others who were unable to use their eGPU until a firmware update was released, it wasn't just an error message that can be ignored.

I'd like to know if the Venus would be in a similar situation, as in firmware updates would be released in a timely manner to address problems with specific laptops. It's obviously a lot harder for a smaller company.

- Dell XPS 9550
- Windows 10
- Devilbox
- GTX 1080


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itsage
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@yoshiwaan The production unit we got to review has the new firmware and it’s working with every Thunderbolt computers we tried: 2016 MacBook Pro, 2015 MacBook Air, 2011 MacBook Pro, 2011 Mac mini, Dell XPS 9360, HP Spectre x360, and Toshiba Portege X20D). Mantiz also provided benchmarks of this Mantiz Venus enclosure working with Intel NUC, Razer Blade Stealth, and 2017 Lenovo X1 Carbon).

By the time these enclosures get to customers’ hands, they’ll most definitely have the new firmware and be compatible with many Thunderbolt  computers.

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Mymantiz_John
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Posted by: yoshiwaan

 

Posted by: Mymantiz_John

 

Posted by: yoshiwaan

Has this been tested with an XPS 15 9550 running windows? I know most of the other eGPUS needed a firmware update to work on that.

HI: to run in the XPS Skylake platform, w/o the FW update, host will post up a eGPU not supported, but after firmware update in TBT3, then the host still post up such a warning, but for the performance & features wise, there's no difference with the fully supported devices.

   

Are you saying this is the case for the Venus or other eGPU solutions? If it's other eGPUs that's untrue, there are many people on this forum and others who were unable to use their eGPU until a firmware update was released, it wasn't just an error message that can be ignored.

I'd like to know if the Venus would be in a similar situation, as in firmware updates would be released in a timely manner to address problems with specific laptops. It's obviously a lot harder for a smaller company.

   

HI: Thanks for those suggestion.

1. Venus has latest FW and official released by Intel. 

2. We can update the FW timely and follow Intel regulation to release the official approved version.

3. Dell XPS Skylake didn't support  to any  eGPU, but the funny thing is they support the Thunderbolt  external PCI-E. Intel found this issue so decided to modify a bit of previous eGPU FW to fix XPS issue.

4. after Skylake, it is Kabbylake. Kabbylake BIOS had been built in eGPU FW. so those issues should be disappeared timely.

 

Mantiz: ● ●


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