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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: nando4
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

Dear all:

  Nothing related with the SSD or USB, and it is not an issue either. A new FW is going to be released soon and everybody will get it with 22xxMiB/s 

On a TB3 system, they'll get 22xxMiB/s as long as the other ports are not being used concurrently (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN). 

Can please you disclose what the max bandwidth for the USB-C controller is in this new firmware?

Without that info, we'll assume it's 10Gbps resulting in 31.2% reduction in eGPU bandwidth when USB-C is fully 10Gbps saturated . Intel guarantee's 10Gbps for their USB-C 3.1 off a TB3 controller so let's see if this will be the case.

Users will be able to measure the bandwidth apportioned to the USB-C controller once this new firmware is released. Done  by running a CUDA-Z performance test concurrently with a USB 3.0 & SATA SSD sequential read, taking the resultant CUDA-Z H2D value and subtracting it from 2254 (100% eGPU bandwidth).

The posted Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550 looks at the value of the Mantiz Venus' extra ports.

 

I had posted everywhere that a new FW will be coming soon & the H2D will be 22xx Mib/S. 

Mantiz: ● ●


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John
Posted by: nando4
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

Dear all:

  Nothing related with the SSD or USB, and it is not an issue either. A new FW is going to be released soon and everybody will get it with 22xxMiB/s 

On a TB3 system, they'll get 22xxMiB/s as long as the other ports are not being used concurrently (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN). 

Can please you disclose what the max bandwidth for the USB-C controller is in this new firmware?

Without that info, we'll assume it's 10Gbps resulting in 31.2% reduction in eGPU bandwidth when USB-C is fully 10Gbps saturated . Intel guarantee's 10Gbps for their USB-C 3.1 off a TB3 controller so let's see if this will be the case.

Users will be able to measure the bandwidth apportioned to the USB-C controller once this new firmware is released. Done  by running a CUDA-Z performance test concurrently with a USB 3.0 & SATA SSD sequential read, taking the resultant CUDA-Z H2D value and subtracting it from 2254 (100% eGPU bandwidth).

The posted Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550 looks at the value of the Mantiz Venus' extra ports.

 

I had posted everywhere that a new FW will be coming soon & the H2D will be 22xx Mib/S. 

I post my reply here, because I should not post my comment in other brand eGPU area.

Sorry to say, I am not just a vendor but also the R&D to develop eGPU from the past & in the future. 

@Nando, you may state any eGPU is the best as you wish,  but since you are an Admin here, so I like you to consider the statement should be fair & consider all the major differences. Otherwise your Admin ID will mislead PPL because they thought you are opinion Leader.

My question 1:

Do you have Sonnet ? or Do you actually have Mantiz?

Question 2:

While you do the performance comparison, with Mantiz updated FW, you will see the same H2D numbers. Yes, H2D numbers will decrease while you start to use the USB interface stuff from Mantiz. but it only happened while you use. but in the other hand, while attached with Sonnet, there’s no option for the USB interface. At least, stay in Mantiz you have ” Option ” to use or not use the USB. with an nice Extra IO board isn’t the bad thing, but suddenly it became a negative items for users? Back to the logic. Latest Games & Apps with Modern Skylake, KabyLake CPU is requiring less & Less H2D packaging, unless you are using the eGPU for deep learning stuff, how will you see the performance gap between H2D 22xxMib/S VS 15xxMib/s? 

  In my opinion, H2D is a number difference, but it is not equal to performance. 

I can officially make a statement here to everyone , Mantiz will provide H2D 22xx Mib/S if that number is that important to some PPL and Mantiz is H2D is going to drop a bit while you use the SSD externally through USB port or SATA Port, but there will be no performance issue, if you are using Modern CPU with a None XPS 95xx Series laptop. But we provide a convenience setup for the PPL who really needs more ports, stable ethernet connection & Extra SATA interface. 

Your statement for Neutral

Everybody has its preference, we all respect, and Mantiz Venus AL material + Space Grey with Anodizing is coming in the 3rd weeks of Aug. Thanks Nando to point this out, we heard that already. If PPL likes to have cheap metal + Plastic Bezel rather than Fine Aluminum + Anodizing, then I also respect that.

Negative point:

Small VS Big: @Nando, how much you do you know about us? or how much do you know about Taiwan OEM/ODM industry? I really don’t think you know about each company’s back ground & history. so, w/o those detail information, how will you judge who’s big, who’s small and sounds like small will give less to users? 

Warranty: Then how did you judge? let us know why you think we are not afford to provide a standard, satisfied warranty to users?

Fan: I assume you don’t have Sonnet & Mantiz, you don’t even really hear about it ( I had changed the location from Pin2 to Pin1 for a different PWM control, but you don’t verify it ) , I would like to state again, if any Previous Mantiz users you found your fan was connected to the 2nd Pin, please change it to the first Pin, it has much reasonable PWM fan control.

Price:

thanks for your advices, when Sonnet touch down to $229 & Akittio reached to $169, Mantiz won’t be still standing $399. We promise we can be below $300.

In the end. “I DO BELIEVE”, every eGPU upcoming will attached the IO Boards, including your Best eGPU. it is going to be a trend. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Twitter: https://twitter.com/Mantiz_John

Mantiz: ● ●


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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 3 years ago
 

I agree with Mymantiz_John on the USB.

Of course IF the new FW will give stable 22Gb/s without using the ports (we will know soon when the FW is released): if it's really dynamically allocated only when you use it, you will have the choice to use it or not, if you want the best performance you will not use it and you will have the full 22Gb/s.

But when you don't need to use the eGPU at max, or because you don't use on games and the bandwidth is less important as we have seen in pro benchmarks, you could still use those extra ports, SSD, Gigabit. That's not bad to have this possibility.

Of course if they have resolved the static allocation problem...

 

A question: when you will use the ports, this dynamically allocation will allocate entire 10Gb/s reserved for USB or only the band needed (in your case half: 5Gb/s)?

 

The only concern I have or what I would have built in, is it is 3.0 5Gb/s  and not 3.1 10Gb/s, also I would have put 2 SATA (so you can do RAID0 for using max bandwidth speed). But I understand it's not a normal people request...

 

 

To do: Create my signature with system and expected eGPU configuration information to give context to my posts. I have no builds.

.

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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: franketto

I agree with Mymantiz_John on the USB.

Of course IF the new FW will give stable 22Gb/s without using the ports (we will know soon when the FW is released): if it's really dynamically allocated only when you use it, you will have the choice to use it or not, if you want the best performance you will not use it and you will have the full 22Gb/s.

But when you don't need to use the eGPU at max, or because you don't use on games and the bandwidth is less important as we have seen in pro benchmarks, you could still use those extra ports, SSD, Gigabit. That's not bad to have this possibility.

Of course if they have resolved the static allocation problem...

 

A question: when you will use the ports, this dynamically allocation will allocate entire 10Gb/s reserved for USB or only the band needed (in your case half: 5Gb/s)?

 

The only concern I have or what I would have built in, is it is 3.0 5Gb/s  and not 3.1 10Gb/s, also I would have put 2 SATA (so you can do RAID0 for using max bandwidth speed). But I understand it's not a normal people request...

 

 

Thanks for your comment

1. Even in Pro APps & AAA Games, you won't see the difference. With skylake & Kabylake CPU , packet ability are high, no need to use full bandwidth H2D then you can have a same result as same as the full H2D bandwidth one. " No DIFFERENCE". 

2. New FW is no more static one. it is dynamic one, If my memory is correct, while you use the the external USB stuff, or SATA HDD, it will be 15~17xx Mib/S. I'll post a picture on Monday. 

3. Our schematic is using the USB hub for 5G, it means the real bandwidth will be3 3-4G, so I think my memory above numbers is correct, anyway, I'll post a pic.

Mantiz: ● ●


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loci
 loci
(@loci)
New Member
Joined: 3 years ago
 

Franketto, I do not have an egpu box yet, going to upgrade my 2014 MBP to 2016 first; but I have effectively decided on the Mantiz Venus.

I have been poking around on on Amazon and Newegg and ran across this type of adapter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ITJ7WDC/

I find that an interesting idea to use with 2x WB Blue M.2 SSDs: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Internal-Solid-State-Drive/dp/B01LYOKOJI

I cannot (yet) attest to this functioning as a RAID inside a Venus but I find the prospect really interesting and requiring low power...  I believe the speed benefit of using more expensive NVMe drives would be diminished as you are bottlenecked by the SATA III and Tb3?  I am new enough  to all of this to not be certain of anything.

To do: Create my signature with system and expected eGPU configuration information to give context to my posts. I have no builds.

.

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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 4 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

In the end. “I DO BELIEVE”, every eGPU upcoming will attached the IO Boards, including your Best eGPU. it is going to be a trend.

I do believe too. Though implemented as like Asus XG Station 2 method via a 2-cable solution to maximise bandwidth to the eGPU and ports independently.  That being with limited bandwidth as we have now with 22Gbps TB3. This is good discussion to work through teething issues. Speaking of which ...

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

 
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (Q M1000M) [6th,4C,H] + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 1803 [build link]  


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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 4 years ago
 
Posted by: zwubel

@nando4: Here you go.

 

@ zwubel, when you click on the Generic Superspeed USB Hub (port 3) hosting the SATA & LAN is it reported as a 5Gbps port? Also, when you plug something into a Venus USB 3.0 port does it also appear below this port3 (also possibly port3 off the root port3), or off another Superspeed USB Hub? Please post a pic if you can.

If Port3 is a 5Gbps USB 3.0 as it might be based on your previous info here then my calcs tell me the highest theoretic SATA or USB 3.0 sequential SSD performance in the Venus when no other ports are in use is:

4-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 = 3.44Gbps or 430MB/s
2-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 * 16/22 = 2.5Gbps or 313MB/s

The calculation: 32 is the 32Gbps x4 3.0 TB3 enclosure controller. The 22 is the 22Gbps TB3 attenutated 'data' link back to the notebook courtesy of Intel throttling. For a 16Gbps 2-lane TB3 notebook, a further 16/22 attenuation occurs on the notebook side.

 Kisaten saw 247MB/s SSD peak transfer here on a 2-lane XPS 9350 so this is tenatively looking on the mark.

 


For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be in the Mantiz Venus when hosting SATA/USB 3.0 off a 5Gbps SS-USB Hub port?

430MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs are feasible
1844MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

+ extra Thunderbolt I/O overhead managing two input data streams. Does this further adversely affect performance?

I hope for Venus owners that their USB 3.0 ports are not under Port3. If they are then the above 430MB/s is the total combined bandwidth for *ALL* of the Venus ports' traffic (5xUSB 3.0 , SATA and LAN)

 


For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be if using a separate cabled 10Gbps USB-C storage enclosure?

1250MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs is feasible
2254MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

* minimal storage latency since the USB-C storage controller is on the host, not  beneath several TB3 & USB bridges on the enclosure

 Such a USB-C 3.1 enclosure can cost as little as US$24 as outlined in the Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

 
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (Q M1000M) [6th,4C,H] + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 1803 [build link]  


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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: nando4
 
If Port3 is a 5Gbps USB 3.0 as it might be based on your previous info here then my calcs tell me the highest theoretic SATA or USB 3.0 sequential SSD performance in the Venus when no other ports are in use is:

4-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 = 3.44Gbps or 430MB/s
2-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 * 16/22 = 2.5Gbps or 313MB/s

The calculation: 32 is the 32Gbps x4 3.0 TB3 enclosure controller. The 22 is the 22Gbps TB3 attenutated 'data' link back to the notebook courtesy of Intel throttling. For a 16Gbps 2-lane TB3 notebook, a further 16/22 attenuation occurs on the notebook side.

 Kisaten saw 247MB/s SSD peak transfer here on a 2-lane XPS 9350 so this is tenatively looking on the mark.

430MB/s is to be expected for a USB3.0: it can't do much than this. It's  lower than a SATA3 speed that has slightly more than 500MB/s.

Instead the 313MB/s if it becomes a real 247MB/s (but we should see a CrystalDiskMark test) sadly it's too slow for an SSD!

 

I hope for Venus owners that their USB 3.0 ports are not under Port3. If they are then the above 430MB/s is the total combined bandwidth for *ALL* of the Venus ports' traffic (5xUSB 3.0 , SATA and LAN)

That's the limit of a single USB 3.0 Gen1 connection: it can't go much than this in reality. That's the reason I hoped it was a Gen2!

 

For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be if using a separate cabled 10Gbps USB-C storage enclosure?

1250MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs is feasible
2254MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

* minimal storage latency since the USB-C storage controller is on the host, not  beneath several TB3 & USB bridges on the enclosure

 Such a USB-C 3.1 enclosure can cost as little as US$24 as outlined in the Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550.

This is misleading...

A Raid0 SataIII of 2x Sata SSD can reach at max about 850MB/s  with USB C 3.1 Gen2 (it doesn't double the speed) and also only in sequential read of large files... If you want to raid0 more SSD to reach more speed you should choose enclosures 3x or 4x SSD, but that costs more (if you find one... I haven't found them, -any-, even for 3,5'' RAID in USB-c only TB3 (and LOT more $$$), but that's another story) and they occupy more space at that point. But that's not sure at all because the 10Gb/s limit it's only theoretically like the 480Mb/s of USB2.0 or 5Gb/s of USB3.0: they are really lower in reality as we all know.

So I will stay with these:

USB 3.0 Gen 1= 450 MB/s

USB 3.1 Gen2 = 850 MB/s

The only way to reach your declared  speed and more could be using another TB3 connection using the 22Gb/s pci-e data bandwidth for transfer instead of eGpu.

 

 

 

To do: Create my signature with system and expected eGPU configuration information to give context to my posts. I have no builds.

.

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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: loci

Franketto, I do not have an egpu box yet, going to upgrade my 2014 MBP to 2016 first; but I have effectively decided on the Mantiz Venus.

I have been poking around on on Amazon and Newegg and ran across this type of adapter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ITJ7WDC/

I find that an interesting idea to use with 2x WB Blue M.2 SSDs: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Internal-Solid-State-Drive/dp/B01LYOKOJI

I cannot (yet) attest to this functioning as a RAID inside a Venus but I find the prospect really interesting and requiring low power...  I believe the speed benefit of using more expensive NVMe drives would be diminished as you are bottlenecked by the SATA III and Tb3?  I am new enough  to all of this to not be certain of anything.

Thank you for the suggestion.

That adapter is to much limited: mSata SSD aren't pci-e SSD. More, even if they was pci-e SSd like M.2 type M (NOT type B or type B+M), the bottleneck will be the output SATA connection, so we will end up always to 500MB/s.

But the idea is good: I opted for a 2xM.2 mSata SSD with a USB 3.1 Gen2 output: I should reach 850MB/s, I hope.

To do: Create my signature with system and expected eGPU configuration information to give context to my posts. I have no builds.

.

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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 4 years ago
 
Posted by: franketto

But the idea is good: I opted for a 2xM.2 mSata SSD with a USB 3.1 Gen2 output: I should reach 850MB/s, I hope.

Please keep us posted on the real-life benchmarks of your 2xM.2 mSATA SSDs, . Customers are now receiving their Mantiz Venus enclosures, so we'll soon see the real-life storage performance from there as well.  Your storage configuration an option for users wanting more performance and reliability.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table

 
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 (Q M1000M) [6th,4C,H] + GTX 1080 Ti @32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10 1803 [build link]  


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