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Mantiz Venus - different SSD performance using enclosure ports versus Macbook po...
 

Mantiz Venus - different SSD performance using enclosure ports versus Macbook ports?  

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lukicharms
(@lukicharms)
Eminent Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

Hello, I am getting my Mantis Venus later on today and a GTX 1070 or 1080/Ti by the end of the week. I will be connecting my Mantis to my 2016 15" Macbook Pro RP 455 w/(Touchbar).

I was wondering if there is any significant performance difference with running bootcamp on an

SSD through the SATA port on the mantis

OR bootcamp through an SSD connected through one of the other TB3 ports on my Macbook

OR Bootcamp directly installed on my Macbooks SSD? 

 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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rushvora
(@rushvora)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: lukicharms

Hello, I am getting my Mantis Venus later on today and a GTX 1070 or 1080/Ti by the end of the week. I will be connecting my Mantis to my 2016 15" Macbook Pro RP 455 w/(Touchbar).

I was wondering if there is any significant performance difference with running bootcamp on an

SSD through the SATA port on the mantis

OR bootcamp through an SSD connected through one of the other TB3 ports on my Macbook

OR Bootcamp directly installed on my Macbooks SSD? 

 

Hey,

You can check out my guide if you need to, I have the same setup. There is negligible performance difference from bootcamp on internal SSD and on external SSD. However, my external SSD connects to a different TB port, and it's separate from the Venus, as it makes it easier to boot just from the SSD without the eGPU connected, if needed. I'd recommend the same, since I feel you won't be requiring the port for something else. Also, when I boot first time from macOS into Windows, I have to boot into Windows without the eGPU connected in order to switch from dedicated to integrated GPU. (See the guides)

late-2016 15" MacBook Pro RP455 + [email protected] (Mantiz Venus) + Win10 // external SSD


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nelga
(@nelga)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

Hey has anyone installed Windows on an external SSD mounted within the Venus? Just wondering how you got it working, and what the performance is like when paired with a Macbook Pro 2017.

ie. Mac booting from an external SSD with Windows via USB-C.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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kisaten
(@kisaten)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

Is anyone using the SATA for an SSD?

I have a xps 13 (9350 model) hooked up to the Venus with only have an SSD hooked up atm (Samsung 850 EVO 500gb).

I tried copying about 20 gigs of videos over, it started out not bad at 245mb/s then took a nosedive to 30mb/s after about 1/3 of the way and stays this speed till the end.

Copying my games folder now and it topped out at 40 and has fallen to 30s average.

My drivers are up to date afaik, but these speeds are worse than my external usb 3 enclosures, anyone have some advice on how I can fix this?

 

edit: new problem, Mid copying the enclosure disconnected the by itself, so the drive isnt showing up anymore, thunderbolt controller shots that TUL TBX-550CA is still attached but i cant get the SSD to show up. Tried unplugging it and plugging in it back in. Works for a while and seems to disconnect at random sometimes.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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zwubel
(@zwubel)
Eminent Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

@kisaten: I've had no such problems with the SSD inside the Venus so far. But I encountered a problem with one of my USB 3.0 external enclosures where it connects as a USB 2.0 device (shown in HWiNFO). All my other USB 3.0 enclosures work fine and at USB 3.0 speeds, it's just the one with an ASM2115 controller that won't allow anything over ~40 MB/s. My thought was that there is either a driver problem with that device or a conflict arises from the fact that the SATA bridge for the SSD inside the Venus also uses an ASMedia controller. Since I wasn't able to find another driver than the normal Microsoft one, I simply use this enclosure with a USB port directly on my laptop. Perhaps what is happening with your internal SSD is somehow related? Because the internal SSD is also connected as a USB mass storage device. Check out the attached screenshot. In it the SATA bridge for the internal SSD is marked blue and the red rectangle shows the speed the device is connected with.

venus ssd usb

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: kisaten

Is anyone using the SATA for an SSD?

I have a xps 13 (9350 model) hooked up to the Venus with only have an SSD hooked up atm (Samsung 850 EVO 500gb).

I tried copying about 20 gigs of videos over, it started out not bad at 245mb/s then took a nosedive to 30mb/s after about 1/3 of the way and stays this speed till the end.

Copying my games folder now and it topped out at 40 and has fallen to 30s average.

My drivers are up to date afaik, but these speeds are worse than my external usb 3 enclosures, anyone have some advice on how I can fix this?

 

edit: new problem, Mid copying the enclosure disconnected the by itself, so the drive isnt showing up anymore, thunderbolt controller shots that TUL TBX-550CA is still attached but i cant get the SSD to show up. Tried unplugging it and plugging in it back in. Works for a while and seems to disconnect at random sometimes.

I think the issue is because the XPS 9350 Half Thunderbolt Speed ( Normal TB3 is PCIx4 32G, actual 22G ) but XPS 9350 is only 50% of that. if it is possible, test it with another normal laptop.

 

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: kisaten

Is anyone using the SATA for an SSD?

I have a xps 13 (9350 model) hooked up to the Venus with only have an SSD hooked up atm (Samsung 850 EVO 500gb).

I tried copying about 20 gigs of videos over, it started out not bad at 245mb/s then took a nosedive to 30mb/s after about 1/3 of the way and stays this speed till the end.

Copying my games folder now and it topped out at 40 and has fallen to 30s average.

My drivers are up to date afaik, but these speeds are worse than my external usb 3 enclosures, anyone have some advice on how I can fix this?

 

edit: new problem, Mid copying the enclosure disconnected the by itself, so the drive isnt showing up anymore, thunderbolt controller shots that TUL TBX-550CA is still attached but i cant get the SSD to show up. Tried unplugging it and plugging in it back in. Works for a while and seems to disconnect at random sometimes.

what is your gFX? 

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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kisaten
(@kisaten)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

@Mymantiz_John :

 

I took out the GPU to isolate the SSD

even for 22G,  30mb/s is really slow isn't it? The drive starts out fine 100+ but then falls and stays at 30-40.

I havent done any benchmarks for the gpu yet (MSI GeForce GTX 1060 AERO ITX 6G OC) because I've been trying to figure out the hard drive and disconnection problem first.

 

2017 07 16 12h53 25
2017 07 16 12h24 48
2017 07 16 12h13 09

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: kisaten

@Mymantiz_John :

 

I took out the GPU to isolate the SSD

even for 22G,  30mb/s is really slow isn't it? The drive starts out fine 100+ but then falls and stays at 30-40.

I havent done any benchmarks for the gpu yet (MSI GeForce GTX 1060 AERO ITX 6G OC) because I've been trying to figure out the hard drive and disconnection problem first.

 

2017 07 16 12h53 25
2017 07 16 12h24 48
2017 07 16 12h13 09

w/o the GPU, the max speed ( logical ) will be 5G ( USB 3.0 Gen I ). I'll do a experiment with XPS 9350 and copy/paste large file to see the value., Please wait for our update. 

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John
Posted by: kisaten

@Mymantiz_John :

 

I took out the GPU to isolate the SSD

even for 22G,  30mb/s is really slow isn't it? The drive starts out fine 100+ but then falls and stays at 30-40.

I havent done any benchmarks for the gpu yet (MSI GeForce GTX 1060 AERO ITX 6G OC) because I've been trying to figure out the hard drive and disconnection problem first.

 

2017 07 16 12h53 25
2017 07 16 12h24 48
2017 07 16 12h13 09

w/o the GPU, the max speed ( logical ) will be 5G ( USB 3.0 Gen I ). I'll do a experiment with XPS 9350 and copy/paste large file to see the value., Please wait for our update. 

I think you should test the " Single Large File " to see the speed between " C " to Venus, I saw the photos, you actually send the 16,xxx small break pieces file to Venus, in this scenario , the speed will drop. You can test it with a 4K Movie , a single file to measure the speed.

 

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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juniordiscart
(@juniordiscart)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: kisaten

@Mymantiz_John :

 

I took out the GPU to isolate the SSD

even for 22G,  30mb/s is really slow isn't it? The drive starts out fine 100+ but then falls and stays at 30-40.

I havent done any benchmarks for the gpu yet (MSI GeForce GTX 1060 AERO ITX 6G OC) because I've been trying to figure out the hard drive and disconnection problem first.

 

As @Mymantiz_john said, you're copying over a lot of small files. The initial large spike of speed you see is twofold: first, you're saturating the cache of your drive, which could be 256MB to 512MB, which gets filled very fast and always shows a large speed in the beginning. Second, one of the more longer-taking tasks is to allocate a new entry in the lookup table of a disk for every new file. If you have many larger files, they can sequentially write large amounts of data, while smaller files each need a new entry, and write just a bit of data. So the performance you're seeing is normal behaviour. I'm not saying Mantiz Venus in itself couldn't also form a bottleneck, but I think you will see a similar behaviour pattern when copying those same files to an external USB drive or hard disk.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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switch
(@switch)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

w/o the GPU, the max speed ( logical ) will be 5G ( USB 3.0 Gen I ). I'll do a experiment with XPS 9350 and copy/paste large file to see the value., Please wait for our update. 

So the drive controller, USBs and Ethernet are all USB hub-based?

2016 15" HP ZBook 15 G3 [Xeon E3-1545M, Iris Pro p580, no dGPU] + [email protected] (Aorus Gaming Box) + Win10pro
2016 15" HP ZBook 15 G5 [i7-8850H, HD630, Quadro P1000] + [email protected] (Aorus Gaming Box) + Win10pro


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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
 

@all, can someone please post the hwinfo64 screen from a Mantiz Venus, clearly showing the eGPU and the enclosure SATA/LAN/USB controller to help answer switch's query?

 

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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zwubel
(@zwubel)
Eminent Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

@nando4: Here you go.

 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John
Posted by: nando4
Posted by: Mymantiz_John
An upcoming FW is going to be H2D 2254MiB/S for sure!

What bandwidth allocation does the enclosure USB-C 3.1 controller get with the new firmware? USB-C 3.1 is rated up to 10Gbps. Does this new firmware give any priority to the USB-C 3.1 attached devices to draw up to 10Gbps of the 32Gbps (31.2%) bandwidth on-demand (dynamically)?

The design is USB 3.0 Gen I, not GEN II 10GB. 

 

Me too thought it was 3.1 Gen2...

So, even with a USB 3.0 Gen1 card, actually you loose 10Gbps instead of 5Gbps: weird Intel static allocation!

When you will resolve this static allocation with a dynamic one, any plan to make the addon card a USB 3.1 gen2?

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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kisaten
(@kisaten)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

@Mymantiz_John

Any luck testing for the sata connection speed problem? I tested again with one big file and it has the same pattern.

2017 07 20 20h38 44

Plugging my external usb drive gives me 100mb/s or more the whole way through for the same transfer (even with multiple files).

2017 07 20 20h44 11

I also have a strange problem where the unit disconnects and reconnects (thunderbolt says the unit is attached but the drive does not show up), this happens at random intervals (sometimes an hour sometimes many disconnects within a few minutes) . Is is possible that I have a defective board? (My thunderbolt hub and adapters don't have this problem) 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

Try a speed benchmark tool like Crystal DiskMark and post the pic result here.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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kisaten
(@kisaten)
Active Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: franketto

Try a speed benchmark tool like Crystal DiskMark and post the pic result here.

Will do that after i get home from work, the bigger issue for me atm is that the drive disconnects at random, (so sometimes the Venus is shown as connected, but no drives show up.) I'll put the gfx card back in to see if that changes anything, but I'm guessing from the strange speeds and disconnects that I might have a faulty board. Waiting to see what John can suggest.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

It would be useful also someone else making a CrystalDiskMark on its SSD on Mantiz (specifying TB3 2x or 4x): so we can compare some results on different units.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

Dear all:

  Nothing related with the SSD or USB, and it is not an issue either. A new FW is going to be released soon and everybody will get it with 22xxMiB/s 

On a TB3 system, they'll get 22xxMiB/s as long as the other ports are not being used concurrently (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN). 

Can please you disclose what the max bandwidth for the USB-C controller is in this new firmware?

Without that info, we'll assume it's 10Gbps resulting in 31.2% reduction in eGPU bandwidth when USB-C is fully 10Gbps saturated . Intel guarantee's 10Gbps for their USB-C 3.1 off a TB3 controller so let's see if this will be the case.

Users will be able to measure the bandwidth apportioned to the USB-C controller once this new firmware is released. Done  by running a CUDA-Z performance test concurrently with a USB 3.0 & SATA SSD sequential read, taking the resultant CUDA-Z H2D value and subtracting it from 2254 (100% eGPU bandwidth).

The posted Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550 looks at the value of the Mantiz Venus' extra ports.

 

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: nando4
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

Dear all:

  Nothing related with the SSD or USB, and it is not an issue either. A new FW is going to be released soon and everybody will get it with 22xxMiB/s 

On a TB3 system, they'll get 22xxMiB/s as long as the other ports are not being used concurrently (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN). 

Can please you disclose what the max bandwidth for the USB-C controller is in this new firmware?

Without that info, we'll assume it's 10Gbps resulting in 31.2% reduction in eGPU bandwidth when USB-C is fully 10Gbps saturated . Intel guarantee's 10Gbps for their USB-C 3.1 off a TB3 controller so let's see if this will be the case.

Users will be able to measure the bandwidth apportioned to the USB-C controller once this new firmware is released. Done  by running a CUDA-Z performance test concurrently with a USB 3.0 & SATA SSD sequential read, taking the resultant CUDA-Z H2D value and subtracting it from 2254 (100% eGPU bandwidth).

The posted Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550 looks at the value of the Mantiz Venus' extra ports.

 

I had posted everywhere that a new FW will be coming soon & the H2D will be 22xx Mib/S. 

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John
Posted by: nando4
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

Dear all:

  Nothing related with the SSD or USB, and it is not an issue either. A new FW is going to be released soon and everybody will get it with 22xxMiB/s 

On a TB3 system, they'll get 22xxMiB/s as long as the other ports are not being used concurrently (SATA, USB 3.0, LAN). 

Can please you disclose what the max bandwidth for the USB-C controller is in this new firmware?

Without that info, we'll assume it's 10Gbps resulting in 31.2% reduction in eGPU bandwidth when USB-C is fully 10Gbps saturated . Intel guarantee's 10Gbps for their USB-C 3.1 off a TB3 controller so let's see if this will be the case.

Users will be able to measure the bandwidth apportioned to the USB-C controller once this new firmware is released. Done  by running a CUDA-Z performance test concurrently with a USB 3.0 & SATA SSD sequential read, taking the resultant CUDA-Z H2D value and subtracting it from 2254 (100% eGPU bandwidth).

The posted Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550 looks at the value of the Mantiz Venus' extra ports.

 

I had posted everywhere that a new FW will be coming soon & the H2D will be 22xx Mib/S. 

I post my reply here, because I should not post my comment in other brand eGPU area.

Sorry to say, I am not just a vendor but also the R&D to develop eGPU from the past & in the future. 

@Nando, you may state any eGPU is the best as you wish,  but since you are an Admin here, so I like you to consider the statement should be fair & consider all the major differences. Otherwise your Admin ID will mislead PPL because they thought you are opinion Leader.

My question 1:

Do you have Sonnet ? or Do you actually have Mantiz?

Question 2:

While you do the performance comparison, with Mantiz updated FW, you will see the same H2D numbers. Yes, H2D numbers will decrease while you start to use the USB interface stuff from Mantiz. but it only happened while you use. but in the other hand, while attached with Sonnet, there’s no option for the USB interface. At least, stay in Mantiz you have ” Option ” to use or not use the USB. with an nice Extra IO board isn’t the bad thing, but suddenly it became a negative items for users? Back to the logic. Latest Games & Apps with Modern Skylake, KabyLake CPU is requiring less & Less H2D packaging, unless you are using the eGPU for deep learning stuff, how will you see the performance gap between H2D 22xxMib/S VS 15xxMib/s? 

  In my opinion, H2D is a number difference, but it is not equal to performance. 

I can officially make a statement here to everyone , Mantiz will provide H2D 22xx Mib/S if that number is that important to some PPL and Mantiz is H2D is going to drop a bit while you use the SSD externally through USB port or SATA Port, but there will be no performance issue, if you are using Modern CPU with a None XPS 95xx Series laptop. But we provide a convenience setup for the PPL who really needs more ports, stable ethernet connection & Extra SATA interface. 

Your statement for Neutral

Everybody has its preference, we all respect, and Mantiz Venus AL material + Space Grey with Anodizing is coming in the 3rd weeks of Aug. Thanks Nando to point this out, we heard that already. If PPL likes to have cheap metal + Plastic Bezel rather than Fine Aluminum + Anodizing, then I also respect that.

Negative point:

Small VS Big: @Nando, how much you do you know about us? or how much do you know about Taiwan OEM/ODM industry? I really don’t think you know about each company’s back ground & history. so, w/o those detail information, how will you judge who’s big, who’s small and sounds like small will give less to users? 

Warranty: Then how did you judge? let us know why you think we are not afford to provide a standard, satisfied warranty to users?

Fan: I assume you don’t have Sonnet & Mantiz, you don’t even really hear about it ( I had changed the location from Pin2 to Pin1 for a different PWM control, but you don’t verify it ) , I would like to state again, if any Previous Mantiz users you found your fan was connected to the 2nd Pin, please change it to the first Pin, it has much reasonable PWM fan control.

Price:

thanks for your advices, when Sonnet touch down to $229 & Akittio reached to $169, Mantiz won’t be still standing $399. We promise we can be below $300.

In the end. “I DO BELIEVE”, every eGPU upcoming will attached the IO Boards, including your Best eGPU. it is going to be a trend. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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franketto
(@franketto)
Trusted Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

I agree with Mymantiz_John on the USB.

Of course IF the new FW will give stable 22Gb/s without using the ports (we will know soon when the FW is released): if it's really dynamically allocated only when you use it, you will have the choice to use it or not, if you want the best performance you will not use it and you will have the full 22Gb/s.

But when you don't need to use the eGPU at max, or because you don't use on games and the bandwidth is less important as we have seen in pro benchmarks, you could still use those extra ports, SSD, Gigabit. That's not bad to have this possibility.

Of course if they have resolved the static allocation problem...

 

A question: when you will use the ports, this dynamically allocation will allocate entire 10Gb/s reserved for USB or only the band needed (in your case half: 5Gb/s)?

 

The only concern I have or what I would have built in, is it is 3.0 5Gb/s  and not 3.1 10Gb/s, also I would have put 2 SATA (so you can do RAID0 for using max bandwidth speed). But I understand it's not a normal people request...

 

 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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Mymantiz_John
(@mymantiz_john)
Vendor
Joined: 2 years ago
 
Posted by: franketto

I agree with Mymantiz_John on the USB.

Of course IF the new FW will give stable 22Gb/s without using the ports (we will know soon when the FW is released): if it's really dynamically allocated only when you use it, you will have the choice to use it or not, if you want the best performance you will not use it and you will have the full 22Gb/s.

But when you don't need to use the eGPU at max, or because you don't use on games and the bandwidth is less important as we have seen in pro benchmarks, you could still use those extra ports, SSD, Gigabit. That's not bad to have this possibility.

Of course if they have resolved the static allocation problem...

 

A question: when you will use the ports, this dynamically allocation will allocate entire 10Gb/s reserved for USB or only the band needed (in your case half: 5Gb/s)?

 

The only concern I have or what I would have built in, is it is 3.0 5Gb/s  and not 3.1 10Gb/s, also I would have put 2 SATA (so you can do RAID0 for using max bandwidth speed). But I understand it's not a normal people request...

 

 

Thanks for your comment

1. Even in Pro APps & AAA Games, you won't see the difference. With skylake & Kabylake CPU , packet ability are high, no need to use full bandwidth H2D then you can have a same result as same as the full H2D bandwidth one. " No DIFFERENCE". 

2. New FW is no more static one. it is dynamic one, If my memory is correct, while you use the the external USB stuff, or SATA HDD, it will be 15~17xx Mib/S. I'll post a picture on Monday. 

3. Our schematic is using the USB hub for 5G, it means the real bandwidth will be3 3-4G, so I think my memory above numbers is correct, anyway, I'll post a pic.

Mantiz: ShopFacebookTwitter


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loci
 loci
(@loci)
New Member
Joined: 2 years ago
 

Franketto, I do not have an egpu box yet, going to upgrade my 2014 MBP to 2016 first; but I have effectively decided on the Mantiz Venus.

I have been poking around on on Amazon and Newegg and ran across this type of adapter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ITJ7WDC/

I find that an interesting idea to use with 2x WB Blue M.2 SSDs: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Internal-Solid-State-Drive/dp/B01LYOKOJI

I cannot (yet) attest to this functioning as a RAID inside a Venus but I find the prospect really interesting and requiring low power...  I believe the speed benefit of using more expensive NVMe drives would be diminished as you are bottlenecked by the SATA III and Tb3?  I am new enough  to all of this to not be certain of anything.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: Mymantiz_John

In the end. “I DO BELIEVE”, every eGPU upcoming will attached the IO Boards, including your Best eGPU. it is going to be a trend.

I do believe too. Though implemented as like Asus XG Station 2 method via a 2-cable solution to maximise bandwidth to the eGPU and ports independently.  That being with limited bandwidth as we have now with 22Gbps TB3. This is good discussion to work through teething issues. Speaking of which ...

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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nando4
(@nando4)
Noble Member Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
 
Posted by: zwubel

@nando4: Here you go.

 

@ zwubel, when you click on the Generic Superspeed USB Hub (port 3) hosting the SATA & LAN is it reported as a 5Gbps port? Also, when you plug something into a Venus USB 3.0 port does it also appear below this port3 (also possibly port3 off the root port3), or off another Superspeed USB Hub? Please post a pic if you can.

If Port3 is a 5Gbps USB 3.0 as it might be based on your previous info here then my calcs tell me the highest theoretic SATA or USB 3.0 sequential SSD performance in the Venus when no other ports are in use is:

4-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 = 3.44Gbps or 430MB/s
2-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 * 16/22 = 2.5Gbps or 313MB/s

The calculation: 32 is the 32Gbps x4 3.0 TB3 enclosure controller. The 22 is the 22Gbps TB3 attenutated 'data' link back to the notebook courtesy of Intel throttling. For a 16Gbps 2-lane TB3 notebook, a further 16/22 attenuation occurs on the notebook side.

 Kisaten saw 247MB/s SSD peak transfer here on a 2-lane XPS 9350 so this is tenatively looking on the mark.

 


For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be in the Mantiz Venus when hosting SATA/USB 3.0 off a 5Gbps SS-USB Hub port?

430MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs are feasible
1844MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

+ extra Thunderbolt I/O overhead managing two input data streams. Does this further adversely affect performance?

I hope for Venus owners that their USB 3.0 ports are not under Port3. If they are then the above 430MB/s is the total combined bandwidth for *ALL* of the Venus ports' traffic (5xUSB 3.0 , SATA and LAN)

 


For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be if using a separate cabled 10Gbps USB-C storage enclosure?

1250MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs is feasible
2254MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

* minimal storage latency since the USB-C storage controller is on the host, not  beneath several TB3 & USB bridges on the enclosure

 Such a USB-C 3.1 enclosure can cost as little as US$24 as outlined in the Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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franketto
(@franketto)
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Posted by: nando4
 
If Port3 is a 5Gbps USB 3.0 as it might be based on your previous info here then my calcs tell me the highest theoretic SATA or USB 3.0 sequential SSD performance in the Venus when no other ports are in use is:

4-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 = 3.44Gbps or 430MB/s
2-lane TB3: 5Gbps * 22/32 * 16/22 = 2.5Gbps or 313MB/s

The calculation: 32 is the 32Gbps x4 3.0 TB3 enclosure controller. The 22 is the 22Gbps TB3 attenutated 'data' link back to the notebook courtesy of Intel throttling. For a 16Gbps 2-lane TB3 notebook, a further 16/22 attenuation occurs on the notebook side.

 Kisaten saw 247MB/s SSD peak transfer here on a 2-lane XPS 9350 so this is tenatively looking on the mark.

430MB/s is to be expected for a USB3.0: it can't do much than this. It's  lower than a SATA3 speed that has slightly more than 500MB/s.

Instead the 313MB/s if it becomes a real 247MB/s (but we should see a CrystalDiskMark test) sadly it's too slow for an SSD!

 

I hope for Venus owners that their USB 3.0 ports are not under Port3. If they are then the above 430MB/s is the total combined bandwidth for *ALL* of the Venus ports' traffic (5xUSB 3.0 , SATA and LAN)

That's the limit of a single USB 3.0 Gen1 connection: it can't go much than this in reality. That's the reason I hoped it was a Gen2!

 

For 4-lane TB3, what would the eGPU and storage bandwidth be if using a separate cabled 10Gbps USB-C storage enclosure?

1250MB/s for storage - full performance RAID SATA-III  SSDs is feasible
2254MiB/s H2D bandwidth for the eGPU

* minimal storage latency since the USB-C storage controller is on the host, not  beneath several TB3 & USB bridges on the enclosure

 Such a USB-C 3.1 enclosure can cost as little as US$24 as outlined in the Mantis Venus comparison against Sonnet Breakaway Box 550.

This is misleading...

A Raid0 SataIII of 2x Sata SSD can reach at max about 850MB/s  with USB C 3.1 Gen2 (it doesn't double the speed) and also only in sequential read of large files... If you want to raid0 more SSD to reach more speed you should choose enclosures 3x or 4x SSD, but that costs more (if you find one... I haven't found them, -any-, even for 3,5'' RAID in USB-c only TB3 (and LOT more $$$), but that's another story) and they occupy more space at that point. But that's not sure at all because the 10Gb/s limit it's only theoretically like the 480Mb/s of USB2.0 or 5Gb/s of USB3.0: they are really lower in reality as we all know.

So I will stay with these:

USB 3.0 Gen 1= 450 MB/s

USB 3.1 Gen2 = 850 MB/s

The only way to reach your declared  speed and more could be using another TB3 connection using the 22Gb/s pci-e data bandwidth for transfer instead of eGpu.

 

 

 

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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franketto
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Posted by: loci

Franketto, I do not have an egpu box yet, going to upgrade my 2014 MBP to 2016 first; but I have effectively decided on the Mantiz Venus.

I have been poking around on on Amazon and Newegg and ran across this type of adapter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ITJ7WDC/

I find that an interesting idea to use with 2x WB Blue M.2 SSDs: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Internal-Solid-State-Drive/dp/B01LYOKOJI

I cannot (yet) attest to this functioning as a RAID inside a Venus but I find the prospect really interesting and requiring low power...  I believe the speed benefit of using more expensive NVMe drives would be diminished as you are bottlenecked by the SATA III and Tb3?  I am new enough  to all of this to not be certain of anything.

Thank you for the suggestion.

That adapter is to much limited: mSata SSD aren't pci-e SSD. More, even if they was pci-e SSd like M.2 type M (NOT type B or type B+M), the bottleneck will be the output SATA connection, so we will end up always to 500MB/s.

But the idea is good: I opted for a 2xM.2 mSata SSD with a USB 3.1 Gen2 output: I should reach 850MB/s, I hope.

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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nando4
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Posted by: franketto

But the idea is good: I opted for a 2xM.2 mSata SSD with a USB 3.1 Gen2 output: I should reach 850MB/s, I hope.

Please keep us posted on the real-life benchmarks of your 2xM.2 mSATA SSDs, . Customers are now receiving their Mantiz Venus enclosures, so we'll soon see the real-life storage performance from there as well.  Your storage configuration an option for users wanting more performance and reliability.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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franketto
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For sure, but I simplified a lot my setup... I want to test a difficult one 🙂

 

I will try to set this config:

1x board with 2x M.2 type B - USB 3.1 Gen2 Type C

2x adapter M.2 to SATA port

2x SATA port multiplier board

4x HD 6TB (2xHD on each port multiplier)

All in Raid0. If all goes well the speed should be more or about 870MB/s, so I should be capable to test the full USB 3.1 bandwidth. But I'm searching for troubles with all of that connections 😉 Anyway I'll test and will tell. In a month or so, because I must wait from china the adapters.

If it will fail, I will buy 2x M.2 SSD and will do the "normal" test  🙂

So, anyway I'll tell you something.

 

But at this point, I'm looking if there are some other spacely enclosures to put my 4HD into, apart Mantiz: I will not use the USB 3.0 onboard... Maybe I will open another thread, because I don't want to hijack the Mantiz discussion 🙂

Or I could still buy the Mantiz and use its USB 3.0 ports for objects non consuming bandwidth and for the Gigabit: also this is not a bad idea!

 

EDIT:

Using only the Gigabit, will dynamic allocation use only the 1Gb/s or all the 5Gb/s as well?

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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nando4
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@franketto, Mymantiz_John told us here:

Posted by: Mymantiz_John

The design is USB 3.0 Gen I, not GEN II 10GB.

LAN sits under the port3 USB 3.0 hub as I noted here, together with the SATA controller. It is quite possible the 4xUSB 3.0 ports are hosted there as well. That would then limit the combined bandwidth of ALL those devices to 5Gbps.

I'll be curious about your storage testing results. Much appreciation for sharing your findings there 🙂

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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franketto
(@franketto)
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Posted by: nando4

@franketto, Mymantiz_John told us here:

Posted by: Mymantiz_John

The design is USB 3.0 Gen I, not GEN II 10GB.

LAN sits under the port3 USB 3.0 hub as I noted here, together with the SATA controller. It is quite possible the 4xUSB 3.0 ports are hosted there as well. That would then limit the combined bandwidth of ALL those devices to 5Gbps.

Yes, I edited my post, I was thinking if the dynamically allocation could save some band if it "sees" that's ONLY used by Gigabit, or if it sees ANY of the devices ask band it will allocate the total 5Gb/s apart the real usage, accordingly reducing the eGPU.

 

EDIT:

So you think it will always allocate 5Gb/s because it can't know how much band it will need, considering every request a 5 Gb/s request max, considering all one USB 3.0 port?

That's bad because if you put a simple mouse, it will ask always a little band to the pc, but the allocation would be always of 5Gb/s... wasting a lot !

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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zwubel
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Posted by: nando4

@ zwubel, when you click on the Generic Superspeed USB Hub (port 3) hosting the SATA & LAN is it reported as a 5Gbps port? Also, when you plug something into a Venus USB 3.0 port does it also appear below this port3 (also possibly port3 off the root port3), or off another Superspeed USB Hub? Please post a pic if you can.

 

Yes, the hub is reported to be capable of USB 3.0 Super Speed (HWiNFO even reports the supported version as 3.1, not exactly sure why). Have a look at the screenshot below (the right column shows the info of said port 3). Before taking the screenshot I plugged two different USB 3.0 enclosures into the front USB ports of the Venus. One of them (green square) is indeed listed under the port 3 hub that also hosts the SATA & LAN, but the other one (red square) is falsely recognized as a USB 2.0 device for some reason (when I click on it in HWiNFO, it says that it's a USB 3.0 device connected to a USB 2.0 port). That's what I was talking about here. Mind you, so far I have not found any other USB 3.0 device that is falsely recognized on the Venus as USB 2.0 so I'm assuming it's a specific compatibility issue with that enclosure and the Venus since it works fine when I plug it into my laptop directly.

venus usb hub

Pending: Add my system information and expected eGPU configuration to my signature to give context to my posts


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nando4
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@zwubel, with something plugged into the USB 3.0 Venus ports, can you capture the hwinfo->PCI BUS screen as you did shown previously here? This will show which is the USB parent port.

eGPU Setup 1.35    •    eGPU Port Bandwidth Reference Table    •    Several builds
2015 15" Dell Precision 7510 M1000M + GTX 1080 Ti @ 32Gbps-M2 (ADT-Link R43SG) + Win10


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zwubel
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Oh sorry, didn't even notice that I expanded the Ports->USB branch. As far as I can make out it's exactly the same, though:

venus usb hub

I connected the same two USB devices for this screenshot.

EDIT: Or did I misunderstand just now what you wanted me to do? 🙂

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